[Politics] A nation divided like never before- who do you blame

drew · Mar 23, 2019

LadySeagull said:
Here we go again.

If the cap fits!!

I did say most, not all. If a leaver comes up with a coherent argument for leaving then they fall outside my description. If all they can come up with is that 'we won two world wars' or 'let's make Britain Great again' or 'let's have blue passports' then I think it's a fair description.

DavidinSouthampton · Mar 23, 2019

Uncle C said:
I blame all those Labour MPs in constituencies where their electors voted OUT. Gutless or what.

What about all those conservative MPs where their constituents voted in.....

Guy Fawkes · Mar 24, 2019

DavidinSouthampton said:
What about all those conservative MPs where their constituents voted in.....

Surely the national vote result outweighs the local vote in that case

Harry Wilson's tackle · Mar 24, 2019

drew said:
If the cap fits!!

I did say most, not all. If a leaver comes up with a coherent argument for leaving then they fall outside my description. If all they can come up with is that 'we won two world wars' or 'let's make Britain Great again' or 'let's have blue passports' then I think it's a fair description.

Precisely.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Mar 24, 2019

Withdean and I said:
I blame John Major’s government back in the early 1990’s for refusing to give the country a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty.
That essentially changed what was the EEC a trading group of countries) into the EU which was a completely different thing but included the trading group.
Many countries were courteous enough to their people to put such a massive change to a referendum.
But we were denied that chance and I think that this has led to where we are now.

I understand your point. The seeds of militant anti-EUism were certainly sewn back then (or even earlier during the 'up yours, Delors' circle-jerk at the end of the loadsamoney era). The reason I disagree is that Major, I suspect, like me, is steadfastly opposed to referenda (the decision making process of a dishonest or moronic and feeble government). Major stood his ground and pursued what he considered to be an appropriate course of action. How much of that was turbo-shandied by his antipathy towards the '********' like 'deadwood' Redwood is moot. We have had two (I think) referenda on hanging. Thatcher introduced a second one because she didn't agree with the outcome of the first. Ironic that it is the sons and daughetrs of Maggie who are most hysterically opposed to a second referendum on Brexit.

Gwylan · Mar 24, 2019

Withdean and I said:
Many countries were courteous enough to their people to put such a massive change to a referendum.
But we were denied that chance and I think that this has led to where we are now.

Many = three

France and Ireland passed it. Denmark rejected it and we're told to go back, think again and come up with the right answer :lol:

DavidinSouthampton · Mar 24, 2019

Guy Fawkes said:
Surely the national vote result outweighs the local vote in that case

As someone once said:..... "Ees complicated"
- Should an MP vote how their constituents voted
- Should an MP vote according to how the national referendum went.
- Should an MP vote according to what they personally think is best for the country.

I subscribe very much to the last of these. I don't believe in the use of referenda in this country, and never have done.

We do not live in a democracy. We live in a parliamentary democracy, which is why I choose the third point above. It ought to be how our system of government works.

Trevor · Mar 24, 2019

David Cameron promised to honour the result of the referendum. This would always have been difficult (in the case of a leave vote) because his party was deeply split and he was never likely to get a very big majority indeed it was a surprise that he got a majority at all. And then he buggered off.

Given the difficult task, Theresa May should have reached across the house to negotiate Brexit jointly. It would have been difficult for Labour to refuse in the immediate wake of the vote - they have much more wriggle room now. She looks ridiculous now bringing her one idea back time and again. She reminds me of the Victoria Wood character from the tearoom sketch (Do you want something from the sweet trolley?)

I've been disappointed that Corbyn has shown no leadership in this matter but this is a Tory mess.

Chicken Run · Mar 24, 2019

Trevor said:
David Cameron promised to honour the result of the referendum. This would always have been difficult (in the case of a leave vote) because his party was deeply split and he was never likely to get a very big majority indeed it was a surprise that he got a majority at all. And then he buggered off.

Given the difficult task, Theresa May should have reached across the house to negotiate Brexit jointly. It would have been difficult for Labour to refuse in the immediate wake of the vote - they have much more wriggle room now. She looks ridiculous now bringing her one idea back time and again. She reminds me of the Victoria Wood character from the tearoom sketch (Do you want something from the sweet trolley?)

I've been disappointed that Corbyn has shown no leadership in this matter but this is a Tory mess.

Cameron never expected the success and majority he achieved in the 2015 election and assumed his Liberal chums would continue to be on his side of the house and vote down a referendum that he was obliged to satisfy his Euro sceptics with, come 2015 he was ****ed and had to go with it but even then naively thought remain would win....

Trevor · Mar 24, 2019

Chicken Run said:
Cameron never expected the success and majority he achieved in the 2015 election and assumed his Liberal chums would continue to be on his side of the house and vote down a referendum that he was obliged to satisfy his Euro sceptics with, come 2015 he was ****ed and had to go with it but even then naively thought remain would win....

That's right - having gambled successfully on the result of the Scottish Independence vote he gambled again. In both cases we understand the pressure that was on him - however it is right to blame him. Ultimately he did not have to make that decision

Guy Fawkes · Mar 25, 2019

DavidinSouthampton said:
As someone once said:..... "Ees complicated"
- Should an MP vote how their constituents voted
- Should an MP vote according to how the national referendum went.
- Should an MP vote according to what they personally think is best for the country.

I subscribe very much to the last of these. I don't believe in the use of referenda in this country, and never have done.

We do not live in a democracy. We live in a parliamentary democracy, which is why I choose the third point above. It ought to be how our system of government works.

So you think an MP should go with their own, personal view over (potentially) the view of their own constituents and also against the result of a single subject vote that was held nationwide which gave a single answer, to leave the EU

Politicians are voted in by their local electorate but stand on several (usually party line) pledges, and the voters who elect their local MP may not agree with everything that MP and their party are proposing, should they win power but vote because, often they are the party and the local candidate that closely matches their view (or at least on some of the major issues)

This means you can have an MP who may also hold the opposite view to the people who elected them on a particular subject but still get peoples votes (because the other things they are standing on likely outweigh the things the voters disagree on)

The referendum wasn't like that, it was a single vote on a single subject with a simple in or out result. Out won. Yet we have some arguing that its not valid, that it's too vague, etc....

If they are right and the vote should be ignored when it's been held on a single issue, how does anything then ever happen in Parliament ever again because there are more grounds for arguing against the policies and the results of MP elections - but this doesn't happen because people accept the outcome of a democratic vote and are prepared to compromise on the outcome and accept that some things they are opposed to may be implemented as a result of that vote.

Leave / remain are polar opposite views with strong feelings on both sides which is why, in this case we do not have people willing to either accept the outcome of the referendum, (demanding another try to get the result they wanted) or they are unwilling to compromise (voting against a deal whilst trying to block a no deal Brexit)

Dick Head · Mar 25, 2019

ripper said:
David Cameron

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This.

</thread>

daveinplzen · Mar 25, 2019

drew said:
If the cap fits!!

I did say most, not all. If a leaver comes up with a coherent argument for leaving then they fall outside my description. If all they can come up with is that 'we won two world wars' or 'let's make Britain Great again' or 'let's have blue passports' then I think it's a fair description.

Lets make Britain great again, the blitz spirit, two world wars ... was then..... Recently, the countries police had to issue a statement asking people to stop calling them because KFC ran out of chicken.
I wouldnt rely on the blitz spirit and how British people were 80 years ago.

on another note, seemed there was a little twitter outburst last night suggesting May is going ..today.

pastafarian · Mar 25, 2019

DavidinSouthampton said:
- Should an MP vote how their constituents voted.

The constituency outcome was not relevant in the referendum, it was a national single vote, divisions by city, county, constituency, region and country are of our own making, they are not part of the legislated national vote.

DavidinSouthampton said:
- Should an MP vote according to how the national referendum went.

Yes, if that vote ultimately leads to leaving, it was a national vote to Leave, not a national vote to remain. Parliament and MPs delegated the decision to the nation

DavidinSouthampton said:
- Should an MP vote according to what they personally think is best for the country.

Yes, following through on a democratic vote to Leave is what is best for the country, trying to scupper the vote and remain IN will be catastrophic for parliamentary accountability and the relationship between the people and parliament. Remaining IN, against the vote,will be a disaster for the country.
By all means MPs can put their case forward for “best for the country” whilst Leaving, but not I think its best for the country we just ignore all this and stay IN.

DavidinSouthampton said:
I subscribe very much to the last of these. I don't believe in the use of referenda in this country, and never have done.

Good to see you don’t support another vote, the country is awash with hypocrites who hate the use of referendums but now want a second referendum vote because they think they might win.

DavidinSouthampton said:
We do not live in a democracy. We live in a parliamentary democracy, which is why I choose the third point above. It ought to be how our system of government works.

The same Parliamentary democracy system that overwhelmingly took the democratic decision to delegate to the democracy of the people, via a referendum, the decision on whether we should remain in the European Union or Leave the European Union.
An outcome that whilst not legally binding was still agreed by our elected representatives, (prior to the vote), that would be adhered to by virtue of legislating to make us the deciders, and promised by the executive that no matter what the result it would be honoured.
It’s a slippery slope to chaos if parliamentary democracy democratically delegates a decision to the democracy of the people only to then pull up the blinds and hide behind their own parapet if that delegated decision turns out to be against what they wanted or expected.
Do not forget parliamentary democracy only exists because we put them there.
(Lords excluded)

Nobby · Mar 25, 2019

The Conservative Party.

Hardly anyone gave a flying f*ck about the EU, but then UKIP started gaining votes from the Tories.

This was all about the Party not being split, and had f*ck all to do with Europe, immigration et al. Just some entitled twats protecting their own.

pastafarian · Mar 25, 2019

Nobby said:
The Conservative Party.

Hardly anyone gave a flying f*ck about the EU, but then UKIP started gaining votes from the Tories.

This was all about the Party not being split, and had f*ck all to do with Europe, immigration et al. Just some entitled twats protecting their own.

Yeah, none of the voters outside of the tory party gave a flying f#ck about being in or out of the EU.

Goldstone1976 · Mar 25, 2019

pastafarian said:
Yeah, none of the voters outside of the tory party gave a flying f#ck about being in or out of the EU.

View attachment 106495

I still can’t quite believe that 4% of UKIP supporters voted remain, no matter how many times I see that graphic.

pastafarian · Mar 25, 2019

Goldstone1976 said:
I still can’t quite believe that 4% of UKIP supporters voted remain, no matter how many times I see that graphic.

It fools a few, its how they voted in 2015 election and compares what they voted for in the referendum. Not beyond the realms of immagination that 4% of UKIP voters changed their mind between 2015 and 2016....

Goldstone1976 · Mar 25, 2019

pastafarian said:
It fools a few, its how they voted in 2015 election and compares what they voted for in the referendum. Not beyond the realms of immagination that 4% of UKIP voters changed their mind between 2015 and 2016....

Is that right? Fair enough then.

Simster · Mar 25, 2019

pastafarian said:
Yeah, none of the voters outside of the tory party gave a flying f#ck about being in or out of the EU.

To be fair, that doesn't disprove his point. Plenty of people were fairly ambivalent to EU membership before the referendum, but if pressed were going to give some sort of answer. This referendum clearly happened because the Tory party were in power and had been hemorrhaging votes to UKIP.

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