[Politics] Brexit

WATFORD zero · Mar 14, 2019

Dorset Seagull said:
I think remain would win. Many leavers will feel so let down from the first vote they probably won’t bother

I agree.

Add those to the change in voting population over the last 3 years, and people who have changed their minds and I think it could be quite conclusive. (I know that the 3 of my extended family who voted Leave have all said they would vote Remain in a 2nd referendum).

NSC has always been slightly more Remain than leave, but this AV poll from 3 months ago showed 71% Remain to 29% No Deal and I can't imagine there has been a massive change since. (Although I have no doubt that that 19% of 'no deal' first choice would be even less tolerant to change).

https://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?368879-1st-2nd-choice-Referendum-Poll

But we'll need to see what happens over the next few days. I have to admit that even as a staunch remainer, there are times that I think f*** it, let's go no deal, as it is the only way some people will understand the implications of what they are asking for. However too many innocent people would suffer :shrug:

On the way · Mar 14, 2019

Triggaaar said:
I think so. May's cabinet split over her plan (or over their own self-interests, it doesn't matter why). And she keeps putting forward the same proposal that has been clearly rejected before. She could have attempted to negotiate with other parties a year ago, to come up with options that would get through the house.

Yes I know, and my opinion is that Labour haven't offered us a decent alternative (it seems others here disagree).

I agree that the arguments of remainers on NSC are mostly based on insulting anyone who disagrees with them, but they're not MPs, so we can't really blame them for what's happening in government.

Yes, but they haven't.

I don’t really like getting involved in politics and tend to keep any political views I have to myself and with my wife, as I’m not very eloquent in trying to put my view forward.
I get what you say regarding opinions and comments from some on here, but some of these comments have spurred me on to respond to a subject I never normally comment on. I’m just fed up hearing that to have voted leave must mean that I am some middle aged oaf from the dark ages who knows nothing about anything who has far right tendencies apparently! and all because I have a different view, wow.
Now, those that know me would probably say that some of those references are factually correct, even I wouldn’t disagree, but, the one thing I do take great offence to is being likened to someone who has far right tendencies, now that really makes my **** fizz. I have family/friends/work colleagues from both sides, live and let live and all that.
Hopefully one way or another this mess will be sorted soon, but it is difficult to see how everyone is going to be appeased with such differing views on a very contentious subject, but let’s just try and keep things civil. :cheers:

WATFORD zero · Mar 14, 2019

I hope the Mods have someone on standby ready to change the thread title :angel:

LlcoolJ · Mar 14, 2019

On Jeremy Vine's R2 show earlier there was a shouty woman saying that if Article 50 is extended, people will rise up and march against Westminster.

Not that it'd change anything (seeing as over 1m marched against the Iraq war and it didn't change anything) but I look forward to seeing this as it would be funny.

I posted on a previous thread about the Farage march ("over 100,000 will go") which about 12 people attended.

Apparently, if there WAS a second referendum and we decided to stay in, there will be civil unrest like we've never seen.....

Is it PotG? · Mar 14, 2019

Peter Grummit · Mar 14, 2019

LlcoolJ said:
On Jeremy Vine's R2 show earlier there was a shouty woman saying that if Article 50 is extended, people will rise up and march against Westminster.

Not that it'd change anything (seeing as over 1m marched against the Iraq war and it didn't change anything) but I look forward to seeing this as it would be funny.

I posted on a previous thread about the Farage march ("over 100,000 will go") which about 12 people attended.

Apparently, if there WAS a second referendum and we decided to stay in, there will be civil unrest like we've never seen.....

There were 700,000 at the People's Vote march in the autumn. There are likely to be as many again at the March on the 23rd of this month.

If Leavers want to march, that's fine too. It's all part of democracy. Democracy didn't start and end with the 2016 referendum.

raymondo · Mar 14, 2019

Icy Gull said:
If it had been up to me I wouldn’t have let the public vote on it at all. How many people actually had any comprehension of what they were actually voting for? I didn’t.

Neither did most of the politicians at the time. IMHO

LlcoolJ · Mar 14, 2019

Peter Grummit said:
There were 700,000 at the People's Vote march in the autumn. There are likely to be as many again at the March on the 23rd of this month.

If Leavers want to march, that's fine too. It's all part of democracy. Democracy didn't start and end with the 2016 referendum.

Completely agree.

It's just that when Leave supporters say "there's going to be a massive march" it seems to turn out to be a few gammon EDL types and some old people.

Which doesn't exactly make me think "well, clearly this is the will of the people".

But apparently that's all going to change depending on tonight's vote. We shall see.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Mar 14, 2019

Check out the BBC Parliament channel, either now, or 2 hours before any other of the 'meaningful' votes this week. There's less than 100 MPs in the house, doing the debate. The rest presumably have more pressing matters, or more likely made their minds up two and a half years ago, same as everybody else.

birthofanorange · Mar 14, 2019

Surgeon: "I have some news for you. It seems that the leg that we thought we would have to remove can be treated after all, although it would mean remaining in hospital for a while."
Man: "No, I want it off."
Surgeon: "But we have had over 2 years of research and new facts have come to light."
Man: "I don't care, I want it off."
Surgeon: "But why? Why would you want to lose a leg that we can probably save? We didn't know it was possible at the time, so you don't have to adhere to your decision to have it amputated."
Man: "My family and I made the decision over 2 years ago, and it would be undemocratic to go against their wishes, and off means off."
*Surgeon and team walk away, shaking heads in bewilderment*

Is it PotG? · Mar 14, 2019

birthofanorange said:
Surgeon: "I have some news for you. It seems that the leg that we thought we would have to remove can be treated after all, although it would mean remaining in hospital for a while."
Man: "No, I want it off."
Surgeon: "But we have had over 2 years of research and new facts have come to light."
Man: "I don't care, I want it off."
Surgeon: "But why? Why would you want to lose a leg that we can probably save? We didn't know it was possible at the time, so you don't have to adhere to your decision to have it amputated."
Man: "My family and I made the decision over 2 years ago, and it would be undemocratic to go against their wishes, and off means off."
*Surgeon and team walk away, shaking heads in bewilderment*

2 years on the waiting list for an Op, the NHS eh?

Lincoln Imp · Mar 14, 2019

BensGrandad said:
I may be naive but in my view if the constituents voted leave then that is the way their MP should vote and vice versa irrespective of their own personal view or agenda. Is that not what they were put in power to do, act for their constituents

Are think you are wrong.

Britain is perhaps the world's most renowned representative democracy. It didn't invent the concept but it developed it for the modern world like no other - it is the reason above all that Westminster is known as the Mother of Parliaments.

A representative democracy has much similarity with our treasured jury system. Rather than having shouty men with ropes announcing who's guilty, the jury system allows for 12 sober members of the public to be chosen, given all available and relevant information to absorb and then, after taking their time, come to a view.

Similarly, a representative democracy allows for the common people to elect one of their number to perform the role of a diligent juror. It doesn't work perfectly of course, nothing involving humans ever does. But it is the best of all alternatives. The man or woman elected by the commoners comes to a view that in his opinion best represents the best interests of those he stands for. What he doesn't do is behave like a rogue juror who listens at the court door and hears the men outside shouting "The man at number 24 did it!", and follows their demands. The good juror, and the good MP, listens to all but follows their own judgement.

Edmund Burke, 18th century statesman, put the principles most perfectly: "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion." Important words. If an MP simply listens to those who shout loudest then we are all betrayed.

On the way · Mar 14, 2019

Peter Grummit said:
There were 700,000 at the People's Vote march in the autumn. There are likely to be as many again at the March on the 23rd of this month.

If Leavers want to march, that's fine too. It's all part of democracy. Democracy didn't start and end with the 2016 referendum.

As you quite rightly point out democracy certainly didn’t start in 2016, but, will have ended then should there be a second referendum!

hans kraay fan club · Mar 14, 2019

On the way said:
As you quite rightly point out democracy certainly didn’t start in 2016, but, will have ended then should there be a second referendum!

Haha.

Read back what you just wrote.

'Democracy will have ended in 2016, should there be a second referendum'.

So, if we allow another opportunity for the people of the country, to make their current views known, THAT 'ends democracy'. In your opinion, what definitely DOESN'T 'end democracy' is denying the public any further say, after one specific moment in time.

Excellent logic. Very well done.

bluenitsuj · Mar 14, 2019

Sticking with my original vote.

JJ McClure · Mar 14, 2019

As a remainer there's two things that would make me think twice about voting remain again;
1) How inflexible that EU have been in Brexit negotiations to date, basically take it or leave it hard ball.
2) If we did go back with our tail between our legs saying sorry we'd like to stay after all, how much would they then take the piss on every little negotiation from then on. We'd be screwed rotten for years to come.
Whether a second vote is undemocratic wouldn't enter my mind based on the fact that no-one knew what they were voting for the first time. At least a second vote would at least be more informed rather than being based on at best assumptions and at worst outright lies (from both sides).

JC Footy Genius · Mar 14, 2019

LlcoolJ said:
On Jeremy Vine's R2 show earlier there was a shouty woman saying that if Article 50 is extended, people will rise up and march against Westminster.

Not that it'd change anything (seeing as over 1m marched against the Iraq war and it didn't change anything) but I look forward to seeing this as it would be funny.

I posted on a previous thread about the Farage march ("over 100,000 will go") which about 12 people attended.

Apparently, if there WAS a second referendum and we decided to stay in, there will be civil unrest like we've never seen.....

I too doubt there would be widespread civil unrest but it would be wise to remember that (although not directly linked to Brexit) one Mp was murdered by a far-right nutball during the campaign and there have been numerous death threats and that's all before many of our wonderful parliamentarians have finally broken cover to show their true intent to either ignore or subvert the referendum result rendering it meaningless (Brino/soft Brexit). Another referendum would likely deepen the poison and turbo charge support for political extremes to levels seen across Europe it would also confirm to those at the bottom, that are continually ignored and who wanted to give the political class a kick by voting leave that democratic results are only enacted when the 'right' result is given.

pearl · Mar 14, 2019

lawros left foot said:
My brother in law on Facebook, he’s very much a Leaver, is calling for a General strike. He’s self employed, and would anyone notice if the retired Leave voters stop work??

Well something needs doing. Time for the Queen to step in and boot the lot out of Parliament. Young people should forget climate change (for now) and being Vegan etc. and protest about their country going slowly down the pan. Get this whole f*cking shambles overturned while the EU will still have us (JMHO)

On the way · Mar 14, 2019

LlcoolJ said:
Completely agree.

It's just that when Leave supporters say "there's going to be a massive march" it seems to turn out to be a few gammon EDL types and some old people.

Which doesn't exactly make me think "well, clearly this is the will of the people".

But apparently that's all going to change depending on tonight's vote. We shall see.

LlcoolJ, can I ask why you think any leavers are “gammon EDL types and old people” not trying to pick a fight here, but I voted leave, sorry, and am certainly not a “gammon EDL type” though it could be argued that I am an “old person”, 52 to be exact, but you know what? I got off my backside and voted, clearly the wrong way for most on here, but nonetheless voted democratically. Maybe just maybe if a few more younger voters, who are now crying foul play and yes there are plenty of those, had got off their backsides and voted the remain vote might, deservedly, have come up trumps, fair play and all that.
Sorry for the thorny reply, just find it a bit offensive to keep being made to feel that the way I have voted somehow means that I have any leaning towards a group that I deplore as much as the next person, we have different views, and are all decent people on here, can’t we just try and keep things a bit civil.
No offence mate, bad day :cheers:

JC Footy Genius · Mar 14, 2019

Plooks said:
So the brexiteers and their brexit queen gets three votes to ask the same question until she gets thw right answer, but the people can not have two as that is undemocratic!? What utter hypocritical bullshit.

The vast majority of Brexiteers are opposed to the plan and voted it down and have lost all trust in May you plonker .. if anything May is a Remainer Queen (with Olly Robbins doing her bidding).

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[Politics] Brexit

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