[Politics] Labour suspend Derek Hatton

Blue3 · Feb 21, 2019

We must all be aware that racism has been an ever present within us all and for all its an innermost battle that must be won for racism in all its forms is pure evil.

I will always stand against racism and if and when I witness it I will always call it out

I oftern think of the words of Pastor Martin Niemöller who witnessed as an initial supporter of Hitler the rise of Nazi Germany individuals from his community were taken away in waves of purges against various groups that he wrote the following

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Neville's Breakfast · Feb 21, 2019

knocky1 said:
Jews consider Israel as their homeland. Muslims do not see Saudi as their homeland, unless they are Saudi.

Are you serious ? For UK Jews the UK is 'homeland.' The fact you even question this is seriously worrying. Israel is a place of safety made necessary by a 1000 years of persecution. Jews can flee there if it happens again. In the meantime people can also visit the holy places and family just as Muslims do in Mecca. Home is still the UK for both. There are also many UK Jews and Muslims who have no interest in Israel or Mecca. You need to stop lumping everyone from a race into one homogenous group.

Bold Seagull · Feb 21, 2019

beorhthelm said:
and yet the accusations continue, from within Labour. Berger is part of an anti-left wing conspiracy? Watson is part of a anti-left wing conspiracy? Momentum seems to call for people to leave when it suits, and who are they to be directing who should be in and out of politics anyway?

I'm not denying there is antisemitism coming from some labour members, mainly on social media by the looks of it, and we know of the higher profile incidents and disciplinary procedures. However antisemitism, racism and bigotry are all over social media as a whole. Ummuna has gone from stating he has never witnessed or experienced any antisemitism in the party, to now leaving because of it within a year. Berger has no doubt received some nasty vile stuff, however she has been an open critic of the leadership on policy as have the others. Watson is right to address it as is Corbyn, but equally you have nothing to say on 200 prominent Jewish members coming out in support of Labour and their belief Corbyn is the right man to tackle antisemitism? The Labour Party is set up that disciplinary matters are a matter for the NEC so that any leader cannot politically point score out of matters within the party.

Neville's Breakfast · Feb 21, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
What gets me is the racism that drove the Brexit campaign goes relatively unchecked still, despite the evidence as [MENTION=435]Stat Brother[/MENTION] posted the other day, freely available on YouTube, and yet cases of antisemitism in the Labour Party explode as if dwarfing all racism elsewhere in our society. It is disproportionate and agenda driven. Boris Johnson can make comment after comment, about muslims, about Obama being part-Kenyan with an ancestral dislike of Britain, that visiting the commonwealth you are greeted with 'watermelon smiles'...the lack of balance at times is unbelievable.

Racism did not drive the Brexit campaign. It is driven by differing views on systems of Government and economics as shown by the large numbers of socialists and ethnic minorities who voted to leave. You are defending the Labour Party from sweeping, distorting generalizations about its racism by making sweeping, distorting generalizations about the views of those who do not want to be a part of the EU.

Falmer Flutter © · Feb 21, 2019

Neville's Breakfast said:
Are you serious ? For UK Jews the UK is 'homeland.' The fact you even question this is seriously worrying. Israel is a place of safety made necessary by a 1000 years of persecution. Jews can flee there if it happens again. In the meantime people can also visit the holy places and family just as Muslims do in Mecca. Home is still the UK for both. There are also many UK Jews and Muslims who have no interest in Israel or Mecca. You need to stop lumping everyone from a race into one homogenous group.

Exactly. David Baddiel on Twitter has to explain this almost daily. He considers himself an atheist by religion but Jewish by race, and the amount of people he gets criticising him for not condemning Israel is staggering. His response is basically because he doesn't give a **** about a country thousands of miles away.

Bold Seagull · Feb 21, 2019

Neville's Breakfast said:
Racism did not drive the Brexit campaign. It is driven by differing views on systems of Government and economics as shown by the large numbers of socialists and ethnic minorities who voted to leave. You are defending the Labour Party from sweeping, distorting generalizations about its racism by making sweeping, distorting generalizations about the views of those who do not want to be a part of the EU.

I think you are confusing voters, and those behind the actual campaign. Please read the post and link again. I'm therefore not making generalisations about those not wanting to be in the EU at all. You have jumped to a conclusion.

midnight_rendezvous · Feb 21, 2019

knocky1 said:
The tweet is not anti Semitic.

No, but that won’t matter. It’s just just about kicking the Labour Party when they’re already down.

midnight_rendezvous · Feb 21, 2019

Hampster Gull said:
The Labour leader and supporters are Trots, of course they let this guy in. Only the MP leavers have forced the racism issue.

By going on live tv and calling people “funny tinge”?

Tom Hark Preston Park · Feb 21, 2019

I'm firmly of the opinion that the Labour Party is not anti-Semitic ie. is not hostile to people of the Jewish faith. Why on earth would they be? I do believe that the party IS hostile to the actions of the Israeli State as regards the Occupied Territories. Two completely different things shirley?

Neville's Breakfast · Feb 21, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
I think you are confusing voters, and those behind the actual campaign. Please read the post and link again. I'm therefore not making generalisations about those not wanting to be in the EU at all. You have jumped to a conclusion.

A part of the campaign contained racist undertones. That does not mean the entire campaign was driven by racism.
In any case, thank you for making a distinction between campaign and voters. Most don't bother in their eagerness to score cheap points.

beorhthelm · Feb 21, 2019

Tom Hark said:
I'm firmly of the opinion that the Labour Party is not anti-Semitic ie. is not hostile to people of the Jewish faith. Why on earth would they be? I do believe that the party IS hostile to the actions of the Israeli State as regards the Occupied Territories. Two completely different things shirley?

i think the problem is that an element use the support for Palestine as cover for anti-semitism. there is a movement that holds the belief Jewish industrialist and bankers are/were responsible for the oppression of the worker, and a short step away from that to accusing anyone Jewish of the same. its fringe, but powerful, vocal group. which is ironic when you think about it, a small group accusing another small group of being in control.

knocky1 · Feb 21, 2019

Tom Hark said:
I'm firmly of the opinion that the Labour Party is not anti-Semitic ie. is not hostile to people of the Jewish faith. Why on earth would they be? I do believe that the party IS hostile to the actions of the Israeli State as regards the Occupied Territories. Two completely different things shirley?

Exactly and Jeremy Hardy R.I.P, Mark Steele, John Pilger to name a few are not considered anti semitic but if they were MPs......................................................

Falmer Flutter © · Feb 21, 2019

Tom Hark said:
I'm firmly of the opinion that the Labour Party is not anti-Semitic ie. is not hostile to people of the Jewish faith. Why on earth would they be? I do believe that the party IS hostile to the actions of the Israeli State as regards the Occupied Territories. Two completely different things shirley?

Yes they are separate, but the problem arises when the two are blurred ie, asking Jewish people to condemn the Israeli state. It's about as relevant as asking the people of Hastings to condemn the Israeli state. Or asking black people to condemn an African dictatorship or Muslims to condemn Saudi Arabia.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Feb 21, 2019

Bold Seagull said:
You're pretty much so unbalanced on this so as to be conspiratorial yourself. This is starting to have McCarthyism written all over it. People don't like left wing politics, it is feared, and so everything is done to discredit it. Antisemitism is an issue, however Livingstone was indefinitely suspended and he resigned, and Galloway was kicked out. It was actually Momentum who called for Livingstone to leave politics altogether.

200 Jewish members and supporters signed a declaration only this week giving their support to Corbyn and Labour to tackle antisemitism. Doesn't exactly suit the current news cycle narrative though does it. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-crucial-ally-in-fight-against-antisemitism

OK, fair point - 200 Jewish labour members have faith in Jeremy Corbyn. I suspect they may find themselves ultimately disappointed. And their support does not mean that Berger is wrong. Nevertheless, for me the main issue is incompetance. Corbyn has had years to deal with this. Of course there is far more racism and bigotry elsewhere, including no doubt swathes of the conservative party and, yes Boris has got away with it repeatedly. But....right wing tories are supposed to be a bit racist, aren't they? Its the patriotism that people like and a bit of racism is overlooked. But Labour has always been the party against discrimination and in favour of equality. If it turns out there are some racists under the beds then Labour will be mocked for hypocrisy. Nobody likes a hypocrite. If Blair were in charge he would have nipped all this in the bud years ago. But Corbyn just can't seem to be able to wake up and do something. Letting Hatton back in, as [MENTION=232]Simster[/MENTION] says, was completely imbecilic. I don't believe Labour is institutionally racist, but it can be accused of being so, and Corbyn is doing nothing to rebut this. He just sits in his metaphorical shed, muttering to himself. I don't want him prosecuted for antisemitism. But I don't expect him to be leading Her Majesty's Opposition.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Feb 21, 2019

beorhthelm said:
i think the problem is that an element use the support for Palestine as cover for anti-semitism. there is a movement that holds the belief Jewish industrialist and bankers are/were responsible for the oppression of the worker, and a short step away from that to accusing anyone Jewish of the same. its fringe, but powerful, vocal group. which is ironic when you think about it, a small group accusing another small group of being in control.

Exactly. Remember the debacle over the mural? Reported in the Guardian, no less. This was a year ago. How Corbyn could praise such an obviously vile bit of 'art' is a mystery. He did have he sense to back off when called out, but just consider how easily he lent his support, no due diligence....he's an idiot.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...after-backing-artist-behind-antisemitic-mural

pearl · Feb 21, 2019

I thought Derek Hatton died a few years back (?)

Tom Hark Preston Park · Feb 21, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
OK, fair point - 200 Jewish labour members have faith in Jeremy Corbyn. I suspect they may find themselves ultimately disappointed. And their support does not mean that Berger is wrong. Nevertheless, for me the main issue is incompetance. Corbyn has had years to deal with this. Of course there is far more racism and bigotry elsewhere, including no doubt swathes of the conservative party and, yes Boris has got away with it repeatedly. But....right wing tories are supposed to be a bit racist, aren't they? Its the patriotism that people like and a bit of racism is overlooked. But Labour has always been the party against discrimination and in favour of equality. If it turns out there are some racists under the beds then Labour will be mocked for hypocrisy. Nobody likes a hypocrite. If Blair were in charge he would have nipped all this in the bud years ago. But Corbyn just can't seem to be able to wake up and do something. Letting Hatton back in, as [MENTION=232]Simster[/MENTION] says, was completely imbecilic. I don't believe Labour is institutionally racist, but it can be accused of being so, and Corbyn is doing nothing to rebut this. He just sits in his metaphorical shed, muttering to himself. I don't want him prosecuted for antisemitism. But I don't expect him to be leading Her Majesty's Opposition.

Big old slab of text there HWT. Doubt many on here will read it for that exact reason. Me included. We get enough of that kind of thing from PB. As the old punk adage goes, if it can't be said in three minutes, it's probably not worth saying :shrug:

Harry Wilson's tackle · Feb 21, 2019

Tom Hark said:
Big old slab of text there HWT. Doubt many on here will read it for that exact reason. Me included. We get enough of that kind of thing from PB. As the old punk adage goes, if it can't be said in three minutes, it's probably not worth saying

Corbyn OUT!!!! punk:

Weststander · Feb 21, 2019

beorhthelm said:
i think the problem is that an element use the support for Palestine as cover for anti-semitism. there is a movement that holds the belief Jewish industrialist and bankers are/were responsible for the oppression of the worker, and a short step away from that to accusing anyone Jewish of the same. its fringe, but powerful, vocal group. which is ironic when you think about it, a small group accusing another small group of being in control.

Nailed it. People with that particular racist line of thinking are not exclusively in the Labour Party, but some are. The leadership now admit it. Always ironic that their criminal views are shared with fascists.

Live by the sea · Feb 21, 2019

Neville's Breakfast said:
Are you serious ? For UK Jews the UK is 'homeland.' The fact you even question this is seriously worrying. Israel is a place of safety made necessary by a 1000 years of persecution. Jews can flee there if it happens again. In the meantime people can also visit the holy places and family just as Muslims do in Mecca. Home is still the UK for both. There are also many UK Jews and Muslims who have no interest in Israel or Mecca. You need to stop lumping everyone from a race into one homogenous group.

I second that from Neville breakfast. I know a few Jewish people and they all consider there home to be London or Brighton ie where they live. They consider Israel as a country to escape to if they were forced to flee the UK in a hurry. By the way all of the Jewish people I know are Actually quite patriotic and very proud of being English . The same goes for some Muslim people I know. Obviously not the Israel bit lol but proud of this country. Although 2 of them have visited Jerusalem funnily.

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