[Misc] Rise in holocaust denial.

Knocky's Nose · Jan 27, 2019

The Clamp said:
But outright denial is real and unsettling. 1 in 20. That’s a lot of people.

Yes, but these people are only denying it because they're too thick or lazy to look at actual facts. I think that says more about the actual person and the society we live in as a whole rather than being worried about actual 'Holocaust Deniers' per se. These people probably have equally fecking stupid views about many issues which they've formed by watching hours of YouTube piffle...

As ever, we hang on the coats tails of America. When they do stupid people, they do it world class. We are starting to follow...

Megazone · Jan 27, 2019

Knocky's Nose said:
Yes, but these people are only denying it because they're too thick or lazy to look at actual facts. I think that says more about the actual person and the society we live in as a whole rather than being worried about actual 'Holocaust Deniers' per se. These people probably have equally fecking stupid views about many issues which they've formed by watching hours of YouTube piffle...

As ever, we hang on the coats tails of America. When they do stupid people, they do it world class. We are starting to follow...

I think what's important to remember about the holocaust, it was based on prejudice....

Tom Bombadil · Jan 27, 2019

wellquickwoody said:
But because I put forward the idea that the Jewish community like to constantly take every possible benefit from every opportunity to remind the world of The Holocaust, and to claim anti-semitism ..........., that makes me anti-Semitic?

Yes, thats it exactly. Wow it's almost like you're becoming self aware.

wellquickwoody · Jan 27, 2019

Voroshilov said:
Yes, thats it exactly. Wow it's almost like you're becoming self aware.

I refer you to the last line of the half quoted post.

A1X · Jan 27, 2019

I think a lot of it is down to the shoddy state of history teaching in schools. I didn't study the Second World War, or events around it, until GCSE, and not in great detail until A-level. By that time loads of people have given it up. I don't see the point in learning about the Tudors and the Vikings when this sort of thing, which is far more relevant to the modern world, should be on the curriculum. IMHO children should be listening to and seeing things like this, which bring it to life in such a horrific way.

Megazone · Jan 27, 2019

A1X said:
IMHO children should be listening to and seeing things like this, which bring it to life in such a horrific way.

The holocaust was a sick, messed up act of humanity acted out by lots of people under order.
Children need to learn to be positive and do the right thing, not study pyscopathic influences. Showing them images and video clips of piled up dead bodies from nearly a 100 years ago is only going to do harm to a child. We need to learn from past mistakes, not keep them in the brain for generations to come.

Lenny Rider · Jan 27, 2019

The Albion Roar said:
Therein lies the point. He's one of the 19/20.

We're talking about the one in 20.

But across the country I doubt it is 1 in 20, it’s the demographic used for the survey.

As highlighted earlier in this thread is it from certain Jewish organisations to keep Anti Semitism in the news?

Or something else?

Almost certainly under closer scrutiny this survey would be showed up to be seriously flawed.

What if NSC did a survey/poll:

Who’s the better mid morning Radio Presenter?

Alan Wares or Simon Bates?

You’d win on here by a country mile, but nationally, unfortunately, Bates would trounce you despite having left Radio One over a quarter of a century ago

Super Steve Earle · Jan 27, 2019

Horton's halftime iceberg said:
I train a lot of people a year in companies, so during those sessions you get to hear people opinions. It absolutely stopped me in my tracks when about three years ago I came across my first, mild mannered but persistent holocaust denier. It came about when oddly enough we were talking about the Dieppe raid, and a strange conspiracy theory came up. He then started arguing that the death camps were not as described historically.

When I asked his sources he showed some strange photocopied daily mail cuttings and a book by an eastern europeon. When I started discussing Antony Beevor, or the Lipstadt trial, he said he didn't read or trust historians. I asked him about the war veterans testimony, even Dennis Norden odds testimony that year. He stated they were all part of a fake Jewish lead conspiracy.

Like the two others I have since meet and talked with quite openly, they have developed these theories by watching one source, You Tube. The first had no PC but his TV had You Tube. All three refused to read any history, however the third did watch Shoah on my recommendation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uni1kybTAn0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvcZgJJLdEA

Really - the Daily Mail? Well that's not very likely.

Anyhoo, I never heard anything about the holocaust or WW2 while at school in the 60's.

Gwylan · Jan 27, 2019

Lenny Rider said:
But across the country I doubt it is 1 in 20, it’s the demographic used for the survey.

The survey was carried out by Opinion Matters, a reputable polling organisation so it's probably pretty accurate. Businesses pay thousands of pounds to market research firms every year - they wouldn't do that if these companies were making things up.

There seem to a couple of misunderstandings from NSCers. First of all, because an opinion poll is of a couple of thousand of people it can't possibly reflect the entire population - something that is totally untrue, these organisations spend a lot of money making sure they have an accurate sample. They're generally pretty spot on (the 2010 election is the only real outlier and even that wasn't wildly out). Remember, that most of their bread and butter work is for commercial organisations, things you generally don't see reported.

Secondly, there's a big tendency here to say that because I/my family/my friends believe x, then the survey that says most people don't believe x is inaccurate. Our friends and family aren't an accurate sample.

I started my working career in market research and I know just how much effort goes into delivering accurate results. So, yes, I can well believe this survey.

Moshe Gariani · Jan 27, 2019

Zebedee said:
Understandable? Why? Because those people are thick, too self centered, uneducated or a combination of all three?

You have scored a half mark from your three suggestions.

Nothing to do with being "thick" or "self centred". Everything to do with being insufficiently educated.

Brian Parsons · Jan 27, 2019

Foul Play Rocks said:
It says that over 2000 people took part in the poll but no mention of the demographics. Is it possible they simply asked the wrong people? Where is all this holocoust denial coming from? I’m nearly 50 and don’t know anyone who thinks it didn’t happen or has been exaggerated so I can’t help but think that it’s the youngsters, possibly with a lack of education in the subject, glued to the internet and fake news that have been asked.

Exactly. Some years ago I walked the length of my then High street. There were pollsters in abundance. One stopped me, I answered her questions as truthfully as I could. At the end of the High street another pollster asked me the same questions to which I answered the exact opposite to the previous pollster. Their records will show two male respondents, unaware they were the same person. Thats why polls are so inaccurate.

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ATFC Seagull · Jan 27, 2019

The Holocaust is (and has been for years) the only part of the KS3 history curriculum that all schools in this country must cover. And they do - well. And the students are very engaged by it. Unless you can show me statistics, I fundamentally disagree that Holocaust denial or ignorance comes from the young.

AmexRuislip · Jan 27, 2019

I think a lot of people, who are ignorant to the facts of WW2, should take time to learn these facts.
Even the likes of Netflix have WW2 documentaries which one can learn from.
Perhaps this a gentle reminder of the past.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46924619

Thunder Bolt · Jan 27, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Nobody's forcing you to attend or even watch such services. I lost a mate in Afgan, my cousin served in the Balkans conflict ..... I think both are worth remembering for their sacrifice or possible sacrifice. Both wars were recent as far as I'm concerned and there for shouldn't be 'forgotten about'.

The Balkans war was also about ethnic cleansing or another way of describing wiping out a section of people for their beliefs. Genocide is another way of describing it.
Rwanda, Myanmair, it is still happening now in this day and age.

That's why it must never be forgotten.

I was taught about the 6 million Jews, but there were also the Communists, Gypsies, anyone with mental illness ie Down's Syndrome, or physical disabilities, trade unionists, Resistance workers, Poles, etc etc. These added up to around another 5 million people. Eleven million deaths.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/holocaust-non-jewish-victims_n_6555604

I've recently been re-reading a book by Corrie Ten Boom, a watchmaker from Haarlem in Holland. Her father, brother, nephew, sister and sister in law were all arrested for hiding Jewish people in their home. Her father died in prison, but Corrie and Besjie ended up in Ravensbruck. Besjie died there but Corrie survived. It is a very profound book and has had a great effect on me.

Only last Friday, on BBC Breakfast, a man in his early 90s was talking about losing the majority of his family in concentration camps, whereas he was smuggled out of Germany as a child. We must keep faith with these people and make sure they are not forgotten.

theboybilly · Jan 27, 2019

Knocky's Nose said:
Yes, but these people are only denying it because they're too thick or lazy to look at actual facts. I think that says more about the actual person and the society we live in as a whole rather than being worried about actual 'Holocaust Deniers' per se. These people probably have equally fecking stupid views about many issues which they've formed by watching hours of YouTube piffle...

As ever, we hang on the coats tails of America. When they do stupid people, they do it world class. We are starting to follow...

That last paragraph is so true - I will use that at some point if I may

Norman Potting · Jan 27, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Reading the article gave the sense of some inbalance in there. Like someone else has posted - I'd be interested to see the questions. What set alarm bells ringing was the statement about grossly underestimating the number murdered. If I was asked how many it was out I wouldn't have guessed at 6m .... millions would be the closest I could have got. Yet the article implies that me getting that figure wrong is bad. I don't deny it happened and I think it's the worst crime in the history of the world. And they only surveyed 2000 people ...... out of 65m odd. Not what I consider a viable sample for such a subject matter. If it's really true then it's horrific .... but I don't believe it's really true.

Very true, also 19 out of 20 people believe it happened.

The_Viper · Jan 27, 2019

knocky1 said:
It is shocking. I would, however, like to see the wording of the Poll questions as there are some very thick people out there. Not knowing is different to denial.

This is spot on, weird article though, very unlike the media to stir the pot.

Worth noting some Americans I speak to think England and Britain and London are the exact same thing, New Zealand is the capital of Australia and the Queen is our ruler and they didn't even know we had a PM. Lets not pretend us Brits aren't as stupid, I've spoken to Brits who think Hippos have flippers and were astounded when they heard they can walk on land, to be ignorant about the holocaust isn't a massive stretch.

Gwylan · Jan 27, 2019

Brian Parsons said:
Exactly. Some years ago I walked the length of my then High street. There were pollsters in abundance. One stopped me, I answered her questions as truthfully as I could. At the end of the High street another pollster asked me the same questions to which I answered the exact opposite to the previous pollster. Their records will show two male respondents, unaware they were the same person. Thats why polls are so inaccurate.

.... except, of course, they'd have cross-checked your name and, on seeing the contradictory responses, would have removed you from the survey.

And if they didn't ask your name, then it's not a reputable polling company. The fact that they're stopping people in the street suggests that it's not.

Brian Parsons · Jan 27, 2019

Gwylan said:
.... except, of course, they'd have cross-checked your name and, on seeing the contradictory responses, would have removed you from the survey.

And if they didn't ask your name, then it's not a reputable polling company. The fact that they're stopping people in the street suggests that it's not.

I've taken part in quite a few "random" street surveys and I've never been asked as to who I was. Okay most were non political, i.e what TV programmes did i prefer etc.

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The Clamp · Jan 27, 2019

People are confusing the word denial with ignorance.

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[Misc] Rise in holocaust denial.

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