[Albion] Dale Stephens

doogie004 · Mar 4, 2019

Skaville said:
Nonsense. He played in all the narrow defeats against the bigger clubs this season. Clearly did his job. We’ve been more porous lately, partly because he is trying to do the job that he and Propper were sharing up until mid December. I can think of one goal in nearly two seasons that I would attribute to Stephens, the second Burnley goal at the Amex.

Come on, point your scapegoating finger more specifically.

So your happy that our midfield pairing in a season and a half have a goal apiece ?goals wins matches no wonder Murray is under so much pressure in every game . 15 last season 10 this it’s what’s behind him that’s the problem . . It’s ok Keri g Possession buts sometimes u gotta attack . Said before and will again will be gobsmacked if propper and sideways start next season assuming we survive

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Weststander · Mar 4, 2019

doogie004 said:
So your happy that our midfield pairing in a season and a half have a goal apiece ?goals wins matches no wonder Murray is under so much pressure in every game . 15 last season 10 this it’s what’s behind him that’s the problem . . It’s ok Keri g Possession buts sometimes u gotta attack . Said before and will again will be gobsmacked if propper and sideways start next season assuming we survive

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Our CM has been far from ideal over the last 19 months, no one could deny that. But we couldn’t afford to upgrade the first team immediately. Plus, due to usually playing on-paper better teams, CH went for the cautious approach of a deep defence, with Propper and Stephens sitting deep with them. Hence our decent GD stats over the 2 seasons, where rivals have racked up awful goals against stats.

The signs are that CH has now tweaked that team set up, and hopefully this summer we finally get an ACM who can score.

Herr Tubthumper · Mar 4, 2019

Skaville said:
I can think of one goal in nearly two seasons that I would attribute to Stephens, the second Burnley goal at the Amex..

Didn’t he get the assist for Arsenal’s goal a couple of months back?

Skaville · Mar 4, 2019

doogie004 said:
So your happy that our midfield pairing in a season and a half have a goal apiece ?goals wins matches no wonder Murray is under so much pressure in every game . 15 last season 10 this it’s what’s behind him that’s the problem . . It’s ok Keri g Possession buts sometimes u gotta attack . Said before and will again will be gobsmacked if propper and sideways start next season assuming we survive

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Nope, as I said, I made that same point in a conversation earlier today but that’s mainly due to tactics. Propper in particular has far more goal threat. He’s proven that at international level. Since the tactical change Propper, Gross and Bissouma have all scored. That’s in two months. The change is there to see but ‘sideways’ hasn’t because he’s playing the holding role, although he nearly scored a blinder against West Brom.

Ps - still waiting for examples of Stephens failing to shield the defence

Skaville · Mar 4, 2019

Herr Tubthumper said:
Didn’t he get the assist for Arsenal’s goal a couple of months back?

Not sure, from memory it was a catalogue of errors that started on the left. I did look into it but the only mention of Stephens on there was this “Captain Dale Stephens picked out March and then Locadia with two exquisite long passes in behind the Arsenal defence but the former lifted his chip well over the bar and the latter dragged his left-footed effort wide.”

doogie004 · Mar 4, 2019

Weststander said:
Our CM has been far from ideal over the last 19 months, no one could deny that. But we couldn’t afford to upgrade the first team immediately. Plus, due to usually playing on-paper better teams, CH went for the cautious approach of a deep defence, with Propper and Stephens sitting deep with them. Hence our decent GD stats over the 2 seasons, where rivals have racked up awful goals against stats.

The signs are that CH has now tweaked that team set up, and hopefully this summer we finally get an ACM who can score.

And who would u drop if this new ACM comes in ?

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doogie004 · Mar 4, 2019

Skaville said:
Nope, as I said, I made that same point in a conversation earlier today but that’s mainly due to tactics. Propper in particular has far more goal threat. He’s proven that at international level. Since the tactical change Propper, Gross and Bissouma have all scored. That’s in two months. The change is there to see but ‘sideways’ hasn’t because he’s playing the holding role, although he nearly scored a blinder against West Brom.

Ps - still waiting for examples of Stephens failing to shield the defence

Examples are every game he’s played and oppo have scored but I’m sure that’ll b someone else’s fault
Blinder against West Brom yep that’s his limit championship

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Skaville · Mar 4, 2019

doogie004 said:
Examples are every game he’s played and oppo have scored but I’m sure that’ll b someone else’s fault
Blinder against West Brom yep that’s his limit championship

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A brilliant well constructed arguement. Well done you

Skaville · Mar 4, 2019

Herr Tubthumper said:
Didn’t he get the assist for Arsenal’s goal a couple of months back?

Just found it online. Absolutely catastrophic defending from Balogun, then Bernardo, Propper, Balogun again, Gross, Balogun a third time then Stephens gets a toe in to tackle Lacazette and it fell to aubamayang. So technically you’re right but boy that’s harsh on Dale.

Reinelt12 · Mar 4, 2019

doogie004 said:
So your happy that our midfield pairing in a season and a half have a goal apiece ?goals wins matches no wonder Murray is under so much pressure in every game . 15 last season 10 this it’s what’s behind him that’s the problem . . It’s ok Keri g Possession buts sometimes u gotta attack . Said before and will again will be gobsmacked if propper and sideways start next season assuming we survive

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How many goals have Kante, Wjinaldum, Fernandinho, Xhaka, Winks scored this season? They all play a similar type of role as Stephens, in a FAR more attacking team, a top 6 team which score many more goals, and yet they haven't scored many at all...

How many goals did Stephens and Kayal score when we got promoted from the Championship? Oatway when we won League 2, or League 1? Bridcutt when we won League 1?

Goals are a bonus with Defensive Central Midfielders, their biggest job is to protect the defence... Our defensive record last season in the Premier League was good for a team just promoted... this season it has been a little shakier, but still not as bad as most teams around us (which is who you need to compare us with, not the top 6)...

As others have pointed out far more eloquently - he is the water carrier, dictates tempo when he can, but most of all tries to win and then keep possession. I coach an U10 team, and have spent the last few weeks trying to explain to them that it is ok to pass backwards, and sometimes it is the best option to keep the ball - it may get groans from the parents when they do it ("GET IT FORWARD"), and it can be boring to watch sometimes, but it is effective.

Skaville · Mar 4, 2019

Reinelt12 said:
How many goals did Stephens and Kayal score when we got promoted from the Championship? Oatway when we won League 2, or League 1? Bridcutt when we won League 1?
.

Bridcutt, brilliant example. Won consecutive player of the season awards, played the same role and scored twice in 132 appearances

ac gull · Mar 4, 2019

Bridcutt is a now a Forest outcast and never makes the bench there

Farehamseagull · Mar 5, 2019

Cards on the table, I’m not a big Stephens fan but his passing is not a big concern for me. I wouldn’t expect a player in his position to make that many decisive attacking passes. He should be winning it and giving it to more able players. On Saturday he did play a couple of very nice forward passes too. In fact, this season he has actually played 277 forward passes compared to 133 backward passes.

My biggest issue with Stephens is that he’s not actually very good at the defensive side of the game. His positioning is not very good at all, he’s regularly caught out of position and then doesn’t have the speed to get back. Plus he is not a particularly good tackler and makes far too many rash challenges.

To prove this, we all think he’s a more defensive player than Propper yet Propper has made 19 more interceptions than Stephens this season as he has a better football brain and gets into better positions. A good defensive midfielder should be making far more interceptions than the 25 Stephens has made in the Premier League so far this season, it’s a big concern for us and puts more pressure on the defence.

He’s 92nd in the Premier League for interceptions, that’s really poor. Etienne Capoue for Watford has made 74 interceptions, Calum Chambers for Fulham has made 57, Billing for Huddersfield and Milivojevic for CP 52. And so on.

Ideally in this day and age you want your DM winning the ball back without having to challenge a man and risk giving a soft free kick or penalty away but they have all also won more tackles. All playing in the same position for teams at a similar level but they’re doing a better defensive job.

That is why we massively need a Stephens upgrade this summer to take a bit of pressure off the defence.

PILTDOWN MAN · Mar 5, 2019

Farehamseagull said:
Cards on the table, I’m not a big Stephens fan but his passing is not a big concern for me. I wouldn’t expect a player in his position to make that many decisive attacking passes. He should be winning it and giving it to more able players. On Saturday he did play a couple of very nice forward passes too. In fact, this season he has actually played 277 forward passes compared to 133 backward passes.

My biggest issue with Stephens is that he’s not actually very good at the defensive side of the game. His positioning is not very good at all, he’s regularly caught out of position and then doesn’t have the speed to get back. Plus he is not a particularly good tackler and makes far too many rash challenges.

To prove this, we all think he’s a more defensive player than Propper yet Propper has made 19 more interceptions than Stephens this season as he has a better football brain and gets into better positions. A good defensive midfielder should be making far more interceptions than the 25 Stephens has made in the Premier League so far this season, it’s a big concern for us and puts more pressure on the defence.

He’s 92nd in the Premier League for interceptions, that’s really poor. Etienne Capoue for Watford has made 74 interceptions, Calum Chambers for Fulham has made 57, Billing for Huddersfield and Milivojevic for CP 52. And so on.

Ideally in this day and age you want your DM winning the ball back without having to challenge a man and risk giving a soft free kick or penalty away but they have all also won more tackles. All playing in the same position for teams at a similar level but they’re doing a better defensive job.

That is why we massively need a Stephens upgrade this summer to take a bit of pressure off the defence.

Those stats are surprising thanks for posting

Nixonator · Mar 5, 2019

Farehamseagull said:
Cards on the table, I’m not a big Stephens fan but his passing is not a big concern for me. I wouldn’t expect a player in his position to make that many decisive attacking passes. He should be winning it and giving it to more able players. On Saturday he did play a couple of very nice forward passes too. In fact, this season he has actually played 277 forward passes compared to 133 backward passes.

My biggest issue with Stephens is that he’s not actually very good at the defensive side of the game. His positioning is not very good at all, he’s regularly caught out of position and then doesn’t have the speed to get back. Plus he is not a particularly good tackler and makes far too many rash challenges.

To prove this, we all think he’s a more defensive player than Propper yet Propper has made 19 more interceptions than Stephens this season as he has a better football brain and gets into better positions. A good defensive midfielder should be making far more interceptions than the 25 Stephens has made in the Premier League so far this season, it’s a big concern for us and puts more pressure on the defence.

He’s 92nd in the Premier League for interceptions, that’s really poor. Etienne Capoue for Watford has made 74 interceptions, Calum Chambers for Fulham has made 57, Billing for Huddersfield and Milivojevic for CP 52. And so on.

Ideally in this day and age you want your DM winning the ball back without having to challenge a man and risk giving a soft free kick or penalty away but they have all also won more tackles. All playing in the same position for teams at a similar level but they’re doing a better defensive job.

That is why we massively need a Stephens upgrade this summer to take a bit of pressure off the defence.

Propper has played 500 minutes more football. Interceptions as a stat is also a weird one, they'll be far more of them for sides playing a more expansive game.

If you watched the game on Saturday and thought he is not very good at the defensive side of his game, then you're beyond help.

Incidentally, I would take Stephens above almost all of those names you just listed without hesitation.

whosthedaddy · Mar 5, 2019

To be honest I think a lot of the diatribe regarding Dale Stephens is misplaced, although I can appreciate to a point where posters are coming from.

He is an influential player in his role, one minute breaking up opposition attacks, the next trying to get us on the front foot when we ourselves are on the attack.

He has his issues at Premier League level of course he does, as do many of our players, this is because we face opposition that has pace throughout their team, we don't as is painfully obvious depending on who we are playing that particular day.

The Albion team suffer because we don't have this inherent speed, it would obviously make life a little easier if we did, this is perhaps where the 'upgrade' arguement comes from, but that could apply to quite a few of our players.

Saturday's first half was due to a lack of confidence, it was plain to see and is a feature in many a team that's been on a poor run of form. After that we found our mojo and upped the pace, hence we dominated from there-on in. That first half was not down to individual errors, more a collective fear factor.

Perhaps we need to look for more leaders on the pitch, that again could come from an 'upgrade' in personnel but for now we have to support who we've got in the team, especially more so now we are fighting for our Premier League future.

Hughton needs to figure out what upgrades are required to increase our chances of doing well in this League for seasons to come.

Herr Tubthumper · Mar 5, 2019

Farehamseagull said:
Cards on the table, I’m not a big Stephens fan but his passing is not a big concern for me. I wouldn’t expect a player in his position to make that many decisive attacking passes. He should be winning it and giving it to more able players. On Saturday he did play a couple of very nice forward passes too. In fact, this season he has actually played 277 forward passes compared to 133 backward passes.

My biggest issue with Stephens is that he’s not actually very good at the defensive side of the game. His positioning is not very good at all, he’s regularly caught out of position and then doesn’t have the speed to get back. Plus he is not a particularly good tackler and makes far too many rash challenges.

To prove this, we all think he’s a more defensive player than Propper yet Propper has made 19 more interceptions than Stephens this season as he has a better football brain and gets into better positions. A good defensive midfielder should be making far more interceptions than the 25 Stephens has made in the Premier League so far this season, it’s a big concern for us and puts more pressure on the defence.

He’s 92nd in the Premier League for interceptions, that’s really poor. Etienne Capoue for Watford has made 74 interceptions, Calum Chambers for Fulham has made 57, Billing for Huddersfield and Milivojevic for CP 52. And so on.

Ideally in this day and age you want your DM winning the ball back without having to challenge a man and risk giving a soft free kick or penalty away but they have all also won more tackles. All playing in the same position for teams at a similar level but they’re doing a better defensive job.

That is why we massively need a Stephens upgrade this summer to take a bit of pressure off the defence.

This. This and triple this. This is how I feel, put very eloquently. We need to upgrade him.

doogie004 · Mar 5, 2019

Skaville said:
Bridcutt, brilliant example. Won consecutive player of the season awards, played the same role and scored twice in 132 appearances

Championship

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Farehamseagull · Mar 5, 2019

Nixonator said:
Propper has played 500 minutes more football. Interceptions as a stat is also a weird one, they'll be far more of them for sides playing a more expansive game.

If you watched the game on Saturday and thought he is not very good at the defensive side of his game, then you're beyond help.

Incidentally, I would take Stephens above almost all of those names you just listed without hesitation.

Why is interceptions a wierd one? Is it because it doesn’t fit with your narrative? Tell that to Pep, Klopp or Sarri or any other top manager who play with a press. The whole point of a press is to make the other team pass poorly so you can intercept the ball. It’s a massive part of modern football.

And I deliberately listed players who all play for similar level teams and none of them play expansive football (Huddersfield and Fulham?!). And I think you’d be quite lonely amongst football coaches, experts and other teams fans in a group who would take Stephens over any of them.

And I said he was ok on Saturday, poor first half mind you but better second. Against Championship in all but name Huddersfield. That is his standard, I would expect him to play ok in that game. But against the mighty Burnley a couple of weeks ago he was dreadful and culpable for two of their goals.

And finally, why the need to get personal - “beyond help” - when someone has a different opinion to you? I didn’t criticise other fans for their opinion, just laid out a perfectly reasonable explanation of why I don’t think Stephens is a good enough defensive central midfielder in the premier league with stats backing it up. It would suggest to me you’re struggling to back up your opinion.

Machiavelli · Mar 5, 2019

Skaville said:
Just found it online. Absolutely catastrophic defending from Balogun, then Bernardo, Propper, Balogun again, Gross, Balogun a third time then Stephens gets a toe in to tackle Lacazette and it fell to aubamayang. So technically you’re right but boy that’s harsh on Dale.

You've described that goal perfectly. Just come flooding back.

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