[Politics] Proportional Representation

Westdene Seagull · Jan 28, 2019

Tim Over Whelmed said:
Now do we think consensus politics is the way ahead?

Clearly we need to break the ridiculous situation of pretend democracy, which party do you want either Con or Lab and if you live in Tory heartlands or Labour strongholds you don't need to worry as your vote doesn't count anyway. Look at how much these two parties spend in Essex compared with other parts of the country and you'll see why the non marginal areas don't matter a jot. We need PR now to allow EVERY vote to count.

Depends on how you look at it. Our current system has been designed to encourage people to vote for the PERSON they think will best represent them not the party. A good example is the last GE, I voted for Peter Kyle not the Labour Party because I thought he'd done a good job of being our MP previously but Corbyn as PM makes me shudder with fear. Under PR you'd be voting more for the party than the person.

Creaky · Jan 28, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Depends on how you look at it. Our current system has been designed to encourage people to vote for the PERSON they think will best represent them not the party. A good example is the last GE, I voted for Peter Kyle not the Labour Party because I thought he'd done a good job of being our MP previously but Corbyn as PM makes me shudder with fear. Under PR you'd be voting more for the party than the person.

If that really were the case then the name of the party that each candidate belonged to wouldn’t be on the ballot paper.

worthingseagull123 · Jan 28, 2019

Plooks said:
If people want a democracy PR is the way forward. If they are happy with this faux-Democratic labour-Tory dictatorship then FPTP is best.

PR is bad though. Take Sweden. We have the Swedish Green Party, part of government, making legislation, with only 6.9% of the vote. That is not democracy. People overwhelmingly rejected them, yet are governed by them in a coalition.

beorhthelm · Jan 28, 2019

Tim Over Whelmed said:
We need PR now to allow EVERY vote to count.

we tried "every vote to count" recently. people arent happy about the result.

i think the case for PR starts good, but the weaknesses outweigh in imo. id rather a system that encourages independents and less focus on parties, so if theres a way of doing PR without strengthening central parties, i could be persuaded.

Tim Over Whelmed · Jan 28, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Depends on how you look at it. Our current system has been designed to encourage people to vote for the PERSON they think will best represent them not the party. A good example is the last GE, I voted for Peter Kyle not the Labour Party because I thought he'd done a good job of being our MP previously but Corbyn as PM makes me shudder with fear. Under PR you'd be voting more for the party than the person.

True but every vote would count, living in Arundel & South Downs you could argue my vote will never count. If I vote Tory I go with the other 37,500 votes, if I vote Green Party I'm one of 2,500 wasted votes that mean nothing anywhere!

Tim Over Whelmed · Jan 28, 2019

beorhthelm said:
we tried "every vote to count" recently. people arent happy about the result.

48% weren't happy but hey this ISN'T a BREXIT thread!

worthingseagull123 · Jan 28, 2019

Plooks said:
Not entirely though. They are a coalition which represents the mixed views of the majority of people. Here we have a party that around 60% of the people rejected.

36% of Swedish voters elected this government.

So how is PR better?

Cadiz Seagull · Jan 28, 2019

Here's an idea. Why don't we have a referendum about this?

Bold Seagull · Jan 28, 2019

worthingseagull123 said:
PR is bad though. Take Sweden. We have the Swedish Green Party, part of government, making legislation, with only 6.9% of the vote. That is not democracy. People overwhelmingly rejected them, yet are governed by them in a coalition.

Remind me how much of the vote the DUP got?

Bold Seagull · Jan 28, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
A good example is the last GE, I voted for Peter Kyle not the Labour Party because I thought he'd done a good job of being our MP previously but Corbyn as PM makes me shudder with fear.

Hey, but you're happy to lead us out of the EU into the unknown without a shudder in sight. Amazing.

Simster · Jan 28, 2019

worthingseagull123 said:
FPTP keeps nutters like UKIP and the Green Party out the way.

Lets not have PR.

Yes but people like you VOTE for those parties and they are being ignored.

Meanwhile - as we are seeing right now - the two main parties can stink of crass incompetence and STILL cling onto 80% of the seats in the Commons. How is that right?

Westdene Seagull · Jan 28, 2019

Tim Over Whelmed said:
True but every vote would count, living in Arundel & South Downs you could argue my vote will never count. If I vote Tory I go with the other 37,500 votes, if I vote Green Party I'm one of 2,500 wasted votes that mean nothing anywhere!

Oh agreed ...... neither system is perfect. I suppose one of my concerns with PR is I won't have an individual representing my consitiuency and so therefore nobody to 'go to' should I want. It will be just the x% from the top of the list of each party - no geographical ownership.

Simster · Jan 28, 2019

worthingseagull123 said:
36% of Swedish voters elected this government.

So how is PR better?

You're being economical with the truth though. Sure, the government makes up 36% of the vote, but another 17% of the vote keeps them in with a confidence and supply arrangement, so they can't force through legislation that the majority don't agree with. Compare that with the way the Tories run the country here.

Bob! · Jan 28, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Oh agreed ...... neither system is perfect. I suppose one of my concerns with PR is I won't have an individual representing my consitiuency and so therefore nobody to 'go to' should I want. It will be just the x% from the top of the list of each party - no geographical ownership.

That depends how you work PR.

Ideally I'd like to see constituencies 10 times the current size, electing 10 MP's. That way the overall share of MP's better matches the vote and there is someone to represent nearly everyone.

Tim Over Whelmed · Jan 29, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Oh agreed ...... neither system is perfect. I suppose one of my concerns with PR is I won't have an individual representing my consitiuency and so therefore nobody to 'go to' should I want. It will be just the x% from the top of the list of each party - no geographical ownership.

Although one significant bonus is everyone would feel their views are being represented in Parliament, however extreme. I know people have a problem with this but at least people's views are out in the open and can be debated, challenged and accepted or rejected by people are heard.

This two party politics doesn't work and feels like an old boys club, your turn, my turn etc.

I would like to see Tories who aren't disadvantaged by not towing the party line, Ideological socialists and cross party consensus rather than blocking policies because one party or another championed it.

Tim Over Whelmed · Jan 29, 2019

Cadiz Seagull said:
Here's an idea. Why don't we have a referendum about this?

We did

Tim Over Whelmed · Jun 20, 2019

So, anyone up for a spot of PR now then?

I can see Mr Cable's gang getting larger with both Labour & Tory defections over the coming weeks and possibly needing to support one of the two parties to forma coalition, imagine if they'll only do it with a party that commits to PR? Although given the crib sheet of both parties a "commitment" won't be worth the paper it's written on.

Triggaaar · Jun 20, 2019

vegster said:
We need a period of benevolent dictatorship so as the country can be sorted out without constant backsliding and bickering.

I'll do it. Once this crisis has abated, I will lay down the powers you have given me.

Tim Over Whelmed · Jun 20, 2019

Triggaaar said:
I'll do it. Once this crisis has abated, I will lay down the powers you have given me.

So no change of job anytime soon!

Triggaaar · Jun 20, 2019

Tim Over Whelmed said:
So no change of job anytime soon!

Not while I'm alive, no.

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