[Football] Getting rid of Rooney was the start of all of this

Eeyore · Jul 8, 2018

Stat Brother said:
Were you always of that opinion?

The England approsch. Yes. It's just that they keep shitting themselves over the top job.

The other teams are doing really well. All of them, from junior upwards, play the same system.

I thought, and said (no revision there) that Southgate was a good choice as he was part of that system. Whether the FA have made the decision by default is another matter.

All the senior success has arrived early and with some fortune. However, it is clear that the investment in youngsters is slowly paying off.

Johnny RoastBeef · Jul 8, 2018

Brighton Lines said:
The FA wanted the 'best available'. But, in Southgate's case, finally asked a simple question: Why have a system in place for a coach to come through the ranks then distrust that system?

My greater point I made previously, and long ago. The best international coach isn't one with all the honours, they just need to be part of a system of development and a person that holds a lot of respect.

The FA kept going for instant glory- it's funny, I know.

The most important signal from St George's Park is not England's progress here, a fortunate route the last four proves little in real terms, but the success of the younger age groups.

I'd like to nominate Howard Wilkinson as the catalyst for all this. It was he who looked at how the creation of Clairefontaine in France had led to them winning the 1998 World Cup and 2000 Euros. He advised the FA to do the same and invest in building our own National football centre at St George's Park. This is a massive part in why we are now reaping the benefits at all age groups.

Kinky Gerbil · Jul 8, 2018

Getting rid of Hart, Wilshire and Rooney was the start of this.

Rooney was a great player for England, but was time for the new players

Hart and Wilshire are the example of all that is wrong with England Players

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 8, 2018

It is part of the human brain's way of working to seek patterns that are not necessarily there.....I nodded in agreement when I first read the original pots but, of course, it is merely one of many possible reasons for the change. In the same vein, my first instinct might be that everything must come together for a team to win the WC. But that isn't true either. The bottom line is that a sufficient amount of good things needs to come together. Likewise an insufficiency of bad things need to not happen.

If one single thing is essential, however, I suspect that attitude is paramount. We see unfancied teams push on, riding on the crest of an attitude that makes up for shortcomings. Germany did this, time and time again. And sometimes we see amazing sides destroyed by bad attitude. Brazil, more often than they would care to remember. In the case of France we have seen both ends of the spectrum of the effect of attitude.

For us, different attitude things in the past have killed us. Remember when Rooney broke his metatarsal? That was it - competition over - the fans knew it and the players knew it. Wrong attitude This time, if Kane gets crocked I have a feeling we'd carry on without too much thought about it. In the past (I have been an avid football watcher since the late 60s) we have turned up thinking a series of fatal things that have morphed over the years:

We invented the game so we can beat anyone without any sort of preparation. Oh.
Failure to qualify.
Failure to qualfy AGAIN
Then, with a massive sense of insecurity we were becoming aware that fast paced skillful sides will rip us to bits.
And they do
And our players all had shit haircuts and side burns.

Meanwhile in the domestic game we slowly morphed from massive drink binges with the likes of Robson and a world of fags, totty, gambling and (for the likes of Merton) a bit of Charlie, to a growing awareness about diet and lifestyle.
And we got to a semi....and for a moment our delusion of grandeur arose again...if it werent for those dastardly Germans!

So eventually we ended up with a squad of mostly well adjusted and healthy lads. But then the PL kicks off...some of them start earning silly money. Man U get us back to winning in Europe, and club football totally eclipses International.
But Venables arrives and it suddenly looks exciting again. The Daily Mirror decides it can't have that, and the man who allegedly dyes and straightens his armpit hair, Piers Morgan, and crew, sabotage the project...

The best managers are now all in club football. Nobody sane wants the England job. So we end up with a series of ludicrous appointments, overpaid foreign managers interspaced with the fragile and peculiar among the homegrown (Hoddle, Keegan and the Wally). The team spirit is undermined by the emergence of so-called 'senior playes', some of whom eventually apparently cannot play together (Gerard and Lampard), and all the while club football holds sway, with the emergence of cliques and players from certain rival clubs barely speaking with one another.

So, as pointed out, the last of the 'senior players' (albeit one who can barely string words together) is now gone. The manager seems normal. The squad is made of equals. We don't have all our hopes invested with one player. One of the mainstays spent a year on loan with is not so long ago (tenuous, but a connection is made). We look like we won't act like we have been humiliated on the battlefield if we lose. And the players do interviews where they talk about real things like depression (how different from the Hoddle era where they mocked the media by inserting joke words into interviews). And they seem to have embraced the whole thing - accessibility, honesty, having fun, not staying in club cliques. There has been no mention of wags, but we don't have Italian Celebacy thrust upon us, either. The more I look the more I find there seems to be nothing to not like about things England, right now. And importantly, the great leveller that makes up for not having ten Peles plus Gordon Banks in the side, attitude, seems to be absolutely spot on.

In summary, we are normal. We may even like Bert Weedon. :lolol:

Gritt23 · Jul 8, 2018

Guinness Boy said:
Might well be covered in other threads. I don’t have time to read them all. Certainly on my Facebook. So apologies for any repetition. But just wanted to make the very valid point that binning off the big eared chav is the best thing I can remember happening to an England team.

Team spirit > individual players

Especially overrated fat stupid ones.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Completely agree! I was calling for it 2 years ago at the Euros, and wanted to build the side around the likes of Dele Alli and Kane then. An expression they use in the NFL when a supposedly "star player" is removed is "addition by subtraction". You take a negative influence out of the locker(dressing) room to improve the overall.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 8, 2018

Johnny RoastBeef said:
I'd like to nominate Howard Wilkinson as the catalyst for all this. It was he who looked at how the creation of Clairefontaine in France had led to them winning the 1998 World Cup and 2000 Euros. He advised the FA to do the same and invest in building our own National football centre at St George's Park. This is a massive part in why we are now reaping the benefits at all age groups.

For younger readers, Howard, although a yorkshireman, and Sheffield Wednesday stalwart, played more games of football for another club. Yes, he was in our side, with his bow legs, tearing down the wing at the first Albion game I attended in 1969.

METALMICKY · Jul 8, 2018

Uncle C said:
Rooney never sang the National Anthem.

Good spot. This was mentioned in pub yesterday when ALL the players were singing. It just smacked of his arrogance.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Jul 8, 2018

Beach Hut said:
Rather than try to find the cause look at the positive.

We have a team now with no fear, may be not world class possibly one or two might be but together and that is all down to the manager.

If you look back in time many England teams were caught up in factions usually via cliques formed from different club player factions - Chelsea v Man U etc.

What we have now is a team of players who want to do well together and also want to achieve together - remember #together once before with BHAFC.

I was born before 1966 but had no clue what happened as 2 at the time, in my life time Italia '90 was our best shot but we did not make it.

I am totally relaxed with this England team, if we do it we do it, if we don't so be it but the most important thing is we have a great set up and with this and it will happen given what the England Youth has already generated, maybe sooner than we all believed.

Sorry, I missed your post. You have said what I said, but you said it much more succinctly :bowdown:

dazzer6666 · Jul 8, 2018

METALMICKY said:
Good spot. This was mentioned in pub yesterday when ALL the players were singing. It just smacked of his arrogance.

Too many long words for him.

METALMICKY · Jul 8, 2018

OK call me Mr Miserable when it's all going so well but there is one more thing I'd like resigned to the past.......the WAGS! A totally unnecessary part of recent England tournaments. They don't need to be there and the players get paid enough to survive without them for a few weeks. I really don't need to know about your Dolly bird wife/girlfriend and just need you to do a job.

drew · Jul 8, 2018

METALMICKY said:
OK call me Mr Miserable when it's all going so well but there is one more thing I'd like resigned to the past.......the WAGS! A totally unnecessary part of recent England tournaments. They don't need to be there and the players get paid enough to survive without them for a few weeks. I really don't need to know about your Dolly bird wife/girlfriend and just need you to do a job.

So you're saying they're not allowed to go to the games then? If seeing their other halves once or twice during the tournament helps their mental approach to games then so be it. Capello was heavily criticized for not letting the players see their other halves during 2010. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Your anger should more properly be directed to the press that turn it into a circus.

DJ NOBO · Jul 8, 2018

There is lots to be proud of , lots to enjoy. But the single biggest factor in our success in the World Cup so far is the level of opposition we have faced.
Facing top, established countries did for us in 86, 90, 98, 02, 06 (ish) , 10, 14. I can’t remember any further back.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t enjoy the moment but I’m sure everyone would have thought John terry, Sven and Gerrard etc were lovely people if we’d squeezed past Portugal in 06.

To go back to the op’s original post, it is harsh but true. Allardyce backed Rooney which I’ve no doubt, and I thought at the time, was the wrong way to go. Good call to sack him off, good call to get rid of hart, good call not to select Wiltshire.

But if we’d have played France in the last 16 , would we have won? I very much doubt it. Equally , would the Much-maligned golden generation have seen off panama, Tunisia , a weakened Colombia and Sweden ?. I would put my house on it that they would.

drew · Jul 8, 2018

METALMICKY said:
Good spot. This was mentioned in pub yesterday when ALL the players were singing. It just smacked of his arrogance.

He did sing the national anthem. Uncle C is talking crap.

People might not like Rooney as a person and some might for some reason think he was a terrible footballer but let's not make things up to support those views.

drew · Jul 8, 2018

Dale Jasper said:
There is lots to be proud of , lots to enjoy. But the single biggest factor in our success in the World Cup so far is the level of opposition we have faced.
Facing top, established countries did for us in 86, 90, 98, 02, 06 (ish) , 10, 14. I can’t remember any further back.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t enjoy the moment but I’m sure everyone would have thought John terry, Sven and Gerrard etc were lovely people if we’d squeezed past Portugal in 06.

To go back to the op’s original post, it is harsh but true. Allardyce backed Rooney which I’ve no doubt, and I thought at the time, was the wrong way to go. Good call to sack him off, good call to get rid of hart, good call not to select Wiltshire.

But if we’d have played France in the last 16 , would we have won? I very much doubt it. Equally , would the Much-maligned golden generation have seen off panama, Tunisia , a weakened Colombia and Sweden ?. I would put my house on it that they would.

Agree with a lot of what you say but with Allardyce, he only had one game and who else are you going to select ahead of Rooney in 2016? McLaren dumped Beckham in trying to stamp his authority and we had a disastrous qualifying campaign which was very nearly salvaged when Beckham came on against Croatia.

As for Wilshere, forgetting on off pitch issues, I would have said he is just the type of player we need. He picks the ball up and goes past players rather than always seeking to pass the ball around the opposition. In other words, he is an alternative option.

Weststander · Jul 8, 2018

atfc village said:
With regards to Rooney he could only score against what was in front of him. Lets remember Bobby Charlton scored most of his goals when we were sticking 9 past Scotland

Not knocking Rooney, but Charlton scored those from central midfield.

DJ NOBO · Jul 8, 2018

drew said:
Agree with a lot of what you say but with Allardyce, he only had one game and who else are you going to select ahead of Rooney in 2016? McLaren dumped Beckham in trying to stamp his authority and we had a disastrous qualifying campaign which was very nearly salvaged when Beckham came on against Croatia.

As for Wilshere, forgetting on off pitch issues, I would have said he is just the type of player we need. He picks the ball up and goes past players rather than always seeking to pass the ball around the opposition. In other words, he is an alternative option.

I’m not sure the Wilshere you describe is the one we would have got. He has played a few good games for Arsenal but a long way from what it looked like he would become. Also, there’s the injury record. I don’t think we’ve missed him but yes, at his best he’d add to the mix.
I can’t remember who was in the mix in 2016 but Rooney had held the team back. Too slow and not suited to any one particular position. Mentally as well, it felt like a much needed fresh approach. Easy to say now, I guess.

Ps
Anyone who says Rooney was too arrogant to sing the national anthem is talking nonsense. His commitment to England was superb and commendable. How sad that anyone would claim otherwise.

Norman Potting · Jul 8, 2018

............In summary said:
Exellent post, you must have delved into the canyons of your mind for it

Weststander · Jul 8, 2018

Dale Jasper said:
I’m not sure the Wilshere you describe is the one we would have got. He has played a few good games for Arsenal but a long way from what it looked like he would become. Also, there’s the injury record. I don’t think we’ve missed him but yes, at his best he’d add to the mix.
I can’t remember who was in the mix in 2016 but Rooney had held the team back. Too slow and not suited to any one particular position. Mentally as well, it felt like a much needed fresh approach. Easy to say now, I guess.

Ps
Anyone who says Rooney was too arrogant to sing the national anthem is talking nonsense. His commitment to England was superb and commendable. How sad that anyone would claim otherwise.

6 years ago Wilshire's style of a brilliant short passing game, including some great CL performances in a dodgy Arsenal team, could have seen him playing for Barca.

His career has declined due to his injury record, caused in part by him chasing every ball and going full throttle into every challenge. He doesn't know how to pace his game, or when not to fight every single battle. He has a short fuse, often justifiably so after being fouled relentlessly, but he can't help himself in seeking retribution. Against the thuggish cheats of Colombia and Panama, even as a sub he would've been targeted.

Southgate in squad selection steered completely clear of anyone with injuries or suspect temperament.

sussex_guy2k2 · Jul 8, 2018

It all hasn’t a sense of post-Raúl Spain. We just don’t know whether we’re going to cross that last line.

Billy the Fish · Jul 8, 2018

drew said:
Never understand why there are a few who get so vitriolic about Rooney. He was part of a squad that failed. No mean feat to score the number of goals he did and will be interested to see if Kane gets close (I suspect he will). He wasn't binned by Southgate, he chose to retire from international football. Suspect a lot of it is down to simple envy (not necessarily with regard to the granny bit though)!

Alan Shearer retired when he was 30 and Rooney when he was 31. Scholes also retired when he was only 30.

Spot on.

This thread is just an outlet for people who need a scapegoat in their lives, the current team hasn't yet provided one so they have to revert back to the nearest chronological scapegoated hate figure, which happens to be poor old Wayne! :lolol:

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[Football] Getting rid of Rooney was the start of all of this

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