[Football] Gegenpressing

perseus · Apr 24, 2018

Gegenpressing

All a bit like chess and too complicated for me. And I'm not sure I agree?

But we have struggled a bit against the heavy pressing sides

https://spielverlagerung.com/2016/07/15/tactical-analysis-jurgen-klopps-liverpool/
https://spielverlagerung.com/2014/07/07/counterpressing-variations/

When we press them like for like the game can become scrappy or we retreat into our shell and concede set piece goals.

I don't like it when the pressing teams accuse their opponents of parking the bus or turning the game into a scrappy affair as they have little choice unless their technique is good.

Ideally, we should be good in possession (we are) and comfortable on the ball and make the pressing teams chase shadows!

Selective pressing is an option as it does not expend so much energy? When the pressing teams score,sometimes they ease off and look for counter attacks.

PS: it is the % passing accuracy that sets Man City apart.

West Upper Seagull · Apr 24, 2018

perseus said:
Gegenpressing

Ideally, we should be good in possession (we are) and comfortable on the ball and make the pressing teams chase shadows!

We could be better at keeping possession than we are IMO, particularly away from home where too often we panic and give the ball away cheaply when we’re closed down, putting ourselves under too much pressure. When you watch the likes of City play, the movement off the ball from players is different class giving the player with the ball a number of options to make a pass and keep possession. In our case quite often it’s a case that the player on the ball tends to have limited options which is when we go long or give it away - again, more so in away games.

Wilko · Apr 24, 2018

Interesting that the high pressing of Liverpool has resulted in the conceding 2 goals in the last ten minutes of the game today and at WBA at the weekend. Do they get knackered?

Coldeanseagull · Apr 24, 2018

Wilko said:
Interesting that the high pressing of Liverpool has resulted in the conceding 2 goals in the last ten minutes of the game today and at WBA at the weekend. Do they get knackered?

So, the trick is not to concede five in the first 80 minutes!

perseus · Apr 25, 2018

Wilko said:
Interesting that the high pressing of Liverpool has resulted in the conceding 2 goals in the last ten minutes of the game today and at WBA at the weekend. Do they get knackered?

One possible explanation is when Liverpool step off the gas they stop competing for the second ball (gegenpressing) they do not fall back so neatly back in completive shape and leave gaps (their defence which I thought was very good at the Amex esp Lovren) gets the blame? Though it was bloody set pieces against WBA (for us and Liverpool).

Under Pulis, WBA weren't very good but they did not lose the ball very often.

I would like to think our passing and keeping possession could get a bit better when we are leading and playing gegenpressing sides.
Firmino presses for Liverpool (he was a through nuisance). Murray doesn't (question of style) but Baldock used to chase back. Ashley Barnes did before except he fouled a lot doing so.

perseus · Apr 26, 2018

What our gaffer says:

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/performance/tactics/countering-team-press-high-pitch

Whether all the players actually do this?

maffew · Apr 26, 2018

Blimey, thats some analysis, interesting thanks

Weststander · Apr 26, 2018

Wilko said:
Interesting that the high pressing of Liverpool has resulted in the conceding 2 goals in the last ten minutes of the game today and at WBA at the weekend. Do they get knackered?

Yes.

Glenn Hoddle mentioned this during the last CL game. It's a trade off, more often than not, teams have good as won before the final few minutes.

Hudd play this, and it normally does the trick in their midfield battles with the Albion.

Weststander · Apr 26, 2018

perseus said:
One possible explanation is when Liverpool step off the gas they stop competing for the second ball (gegenpressing) they do not fall back so neatly back in completive shape and leave gaps (their defence which I thought was very good at the Amex esp Lovren) gets the blame? Though it was bloody set pieces against WBA (for us and Liverpool).

Under Pulis, WBA weren't very good but they did not lose the ball very often.

I would like to think our passing and keeping possession could get a bit better when we are leading and playing gegenpressing sides.
Firmino presses for Liverpool (he was a through nuisance). Murray doesn't (question of style) but Baldock used to chase back. Ashley Barnes did before except he fouled a lot doing so.

Firmino is at his peak, age 26.

Murray's almost 35, coming to the end of his career and noticeably knackered 60 minutes into PL games.

The_Viper · Apr 26, 2018

perseus said:
What our gaffer says:

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/performance/tactics/countering-team-press-high-pitch

Whether all the players actually do this?

Weird, because I feel the best way to beat us is to high press, so wtf team?

lancyclaret · Apr 27, 2018

Weststander said:
Yes.

Glenn Hoddle mentioned this during the last CL game. It's a trade off, more often than not, teams have good as won before the final few minutes.

Hudd play this, and it normally does the trick in their midfield battles with the Albion.

Against fitter teams who work hard (Burnley), Huddersfield usually abandon "gegenpressen" and retreat into their defensive shell. Their lack of goals bears this out.

Machiavelli · Apr 27, 2018

lancyclaret said:
Against fitter teams who work hard (Burnley), Huddersfield usually abandon "gegenpressen" and retreat into their defensive shell. Their lack of goals bears this out.

I'd go along with this. Wagner adopts a very different game plan according to the opposition. Whether to gegenpress or not is one, how deep to defend is another.

perseus · Apr 27, 2018

Weststander said:
Firmino is at his peak, age 26.

Murray's almost 35, coming to the end of his career and noticeably knackered 60 minutes into PL games.

Striker has to play deep to give an extra outlet in midfield. Or go wide (Locadia, Barnes) with second winger going inside.

Hemed had his best Albion performance at home to Huddersfield last season when they dropped back giving him room.

Machiavelli · Apr 27, 2018

Weststander said:
Yes.

Glenn Hoddle mentioned this during the last CL game. It's a trade off, more often than not, teams have good as won before the final few minutes.

Hudd play this, and it normally does the trick in their midfield battles with the Albion.

Hoddle is a good analyst/co-commentator. He was not only pointing to Liverpool tiring towards the end, but of the need for game management of closing down the game and shutting up shop once they went 5-0 up. Liverpool did visibly tire towards the end, but they were undone more by a defensive mistake and an unfortunate penalty decision. Even for them, it'd take remarkable feats of fitness to maintain that intensity for 90 minutes.

Weststander · Apr 27, 2018

Machiavelli said:
Hoddle is a good analyst/co-commentator. He was not only pointing to Liverpool tiring towards the end, but of the need for game management of closing down the game and shutting up shop once they went 5-0 up. Liverpool did visibly tire towards the end, but they were undone more by a defensive mistake and an unfortunate penalty decision. Even for them, it'd take remarkable feats of fitness to maintain that intensity for 90 minutes.

Totally agree with you. It can't be maintained, but the benefits of gaining 5 goals before they did tire, are there to see. Klopp said post match the imperfect defence is all part of the package.

perseus · Apr 30, 2018

After we have sorted

1) defending set pieces (to save at least 10 goals to average)
2) attacking set pieces (to score at least 5 goals to average)

maybe then we can work out how to keep the ball a bit better and make the gegenpressers chase shadows

The rest is tactical preferences and clinical finishing.

Goals are 10 below average, 3 from headers. (5 from set pieces) 9/10 away from home.

sussex_guy2k2 · Apr 30, 2018

Gengen pressing is a phenomenal tactical tool. But one which wouldn’t suit us under Hughton at all.

perseus · Apr 30, 2018

sussex_guy2k2 said:
Gengen pressing is a phenomenal tactical tool. But one which wouldn’t suit us under Hughton at all.

I think we ought to manage a bit of selective pressing in the second half.

perseus · Apr 30, 2018

Watching Watford with interest to see how they deal with the Spurs press? Because Spurs scored early they are not pressing all that much and a bit slapdash at times. Spurs 66% possession after 38 minutes

sussex_guy2k2 · May 1, 2018

perseus said:
I think we ought to manage a bit of selective pressing in the second half.

Selective pressing doesn’t really work at the top level though, does it. The defenders are too technically gifted and just play around a weak press. And our defensive line is usually so deep that the gaps would open up far too easily for the opposition to exploit.

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[Football] Gegenpressing

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