[Politics] Where's Jeremy Corbyn

midnight_rendezvous · Apr 2, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
Yes, the problem is antisemitism ... a major problem in the Labour party according to Labour MP's, Labour Members, Jewish groups as reported in The Guardian and The Mirror. If it was just the right-wing press and Tories making claims you may have a point but it isn't. I am sure Corbyn supporters and Labour-supporting papers have trawled high and low for stories that show a similar problem in other parties. If the PM had been found defending an obviously anti semetic mural, associating with rabidly anti-Semitic people and groups I expect she would be under fire. As would the Tories If they had launched an internal investigation into anti-Semitism two years ago and still had over 70 cases unresolved. If Jewish groups had declared the Tory party officially racist I expect that would also have made the news.

This is about legitimate scrutiny of Corbyn and the Labour party. Playing the victim/conspiracy card or indulging in whataboutery looks very much like political diversionary tactics.

Of course Labour have a responsibility to confront any signs of anti-Semitism within their own ranks (I have already acknowledged this), but the data I posted earlier suggests that the commonplace anti-Semitic attitudes of the past are being rapidly outnumbered by the flood of new progressive left-liberal people to have joined Labour since Corbyn became leader.

Now I am calling into question the following: are people only pretending to care about anti-semitism so they can undermine Corbyn and the left? And if not, where is the balance of posters on NSC and the media? Because at the moment I’m not seeing it. You can call it what you want, a conspiracy theory, whataboutery, it still comes down to one thing. Balance. Or the lack thereof.

Here is a few things that haven’t found, or barely found, their way onto NSC this week or the press this week. And you can guarantee if it was Labour or Corbyn we’d be inundated with new threads. But, I digress...

- When May claimed "there is no place in Labour for those who want to tackle anti-Semitism" she labelled every single Jewish person within the Labour Party as tolerant of anti-Semitism. A non-Jew accusing a significant number of Jewish people of being tolerant of anti-Semitism is fundamentally an act of anti-Semitism in itself because it's an invocation of the deeply anti-Semitic trope of the "self-hating Jew".

- The Tory government minister Sajid Javid stood up in parliament and accused the Labour activist group Momentum and their leader, Jon Lansman (who is Jewish), of being "neo-fascists". So where is the tide of outrage about this hard-right government minister deliberately and offensively tarring hundreds of peaceful anti-fascist left-leaning Jewish people with the vile ideology that resulted in the mass genocide against their ancestors?

- The Tories decided to out someone as gay against their will in a desperate effort to discredit their whistleblowing over alleged cheating by the Vote Leave campaign. Theresa May's reaction to this outrageous piece of homophobic bullying wasn't to apologise to the victim and sack the perpetrator. In fact she didn't even bother to apologise to the victim at all, and instead put out a statement of "full confidence" in the homophobic bully.

- On the same weekend that Theresa May's team resorted to homophobic bullying in order to defend their beloved Brexit the Tory MP Bob Blackman took to Facebook in order to share a grotesque piece of extreme-right, Islamophobic, anti-Somalian propaganda from the United States. Blackman subsequently deleted the post and issued the extraordinary excuse that he had never actually visited the website he shared a link to, but this is a guy with a proven track record of bigotry that even went as far as promoting the EDL founder Tommy Robinson. Has Theresa May reprimanded Blackman for his disgusting behaviour. Of course she hasn't, she's just remained completely silent and relied on the mainstream media to almost completely ignore the scandal.

- Boris Johnson's pathetic effort to demean Labour's shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry by referring to her by her husband's title. The Speaker John Bercow rightly chastised Boris Johnson for his sexism, but the fact remains that the Tory party is stuffed full of political dinosaurs who consider addressing women by their husband's title is some kind of incredibly witty attack.

JC Footy Genius · Apr 2, 2018

midnight_rendezvous said:
Of course Labour have a responsibility to confront any signs of anti-Semitism within their own ranks (I have already acknowledged this), but the data I posted earlier suggests that the commonplace anti-Semitic attitudes of the past are being rapidly outnumbered by the flood of new progressive left-liberal people to have joined Labour since Corbyn became leader.

Now I am calling into question the following: are people only pretending to care about anti-semitism so they can undermine Corbyn and the left? And if not, where is the balance of posters on NSC and the media? Because at the moment I’m not seeing it. You can call it what you want, a conspiracy theory, whataboutery, it still comes down to one thing. Balance. Or the lack thereof.

Here is a few things that haven’t found, or barely found, their way onto NSC this week or the press this week. And you can guarantee if it was Labour or Corbyn we’d be inundated with new threads. But, I digress...

- When May claimed "there is no place in Labour for those who want to tackle anti-Semitism" she labelled every single Jewish person within the Labour Party as tolerant of anti-Semitism. A non-Jew accusing a significant number of Jewish people of being tolerant of anti-Semitism is fundamentally an act of anti-Semitism in itself because it's an invocation of the deeply anti-Semitic trope of the "self-hating Jew".

- The Tory government minister Sajid Javid stood up in parliament and accused the Labour activist group Momentum and their leader, Jon Lansman (who is Jewish), of being "neo-fascists". So where is the tide of outrage about this hard-right government minister deliberately and offensively tarring hundreds of peaceful anti-fascist left-leaning Jewish people with the vile ideology that resulted in the mass genocide against their ancestors?

- The Tories decided to out someone as gay against their will in a desperate effort to discredit their whistleblowing over alleged cheating by the Vote Leave campaign. Theresa May's reaction to this outrageous piece of homophobic bullying wasn't to apologise to the victim and sack the perpetrator. In fact she didn't even bother to apologise to the victim at all, and instead put out a statement of "full confidence" in the homophobic bully.

- On the same weekend that Theresa May's team resorted to homophobic bullying in order to defend their beloved Brexit the Tory MP Bob Blackman took to Facebook in order to share a grotesque piece of extreme-right, Islamophobic, anti-Somalian propaganda from the United States. Blackman subsequently deleted the post and issued the extraordinary excuse that he had never actually visited the website he shared a link to, but this is a guy with a proven track record of bigotry that even went as far as promoting the EDL founder Tommy Robinson. Has Theresa May reprimanded Blackman for his disgusting behaviour. Of course she hasn't, she's just remained completely silent and relied on the mainstream media to almost completely ignore the scandal.

- Boris Johnson's pathetic effort to demean Labour's shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry by referring to her by her husband's title. The Speaker John Bercow rightly chastised Boris Johnson for his sexism, but the fact remains that the Tory party is stuffed full of political dinosaurs who consider addressing women by their husband's title is some kind of incredibly witty attack.

Your data referenced voters opinions not party members. The poll I referenced specifically asked Labour party members for their views finding only 8% of Corbyn voting members thought anti semitism was a serious genuine issue.

Even Momentum disagree and are finally acknowledging the size and seriousness of the issue.

Labour antisemitism more widespread than thought, Momentum says
Accusations should not be dismissed simply as rightwing smears, group says, urging Labour to deal with the problem

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...sm-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says

You are free to post those stories on here and the left leaning press could do the same if they thought there was a significant problem in the Tory party.

Deleted member 2719 · Apr 3, 2018

Corbyn still hitting the self destruct button.
As if it wasn't obvious the man was not to be trusted.

The students may have just had the best lesson of their life, men with beards (masks) should never be trusted, ditch the beards boys, gillette needs you.

How many would still want this guy to lead the country if they had to vote today?

Probably needs a poll, but i am off out.

Blue Valkyrie · Apr 3, 2018

It seems like it is gaff after gaff with CorbynSKI now.

On borrowed time, surely.

midnight_rendezvous · Apr 3, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
Your data referenced voters opinions not party members. The poll I referenced specifically asked Labour party members for their views finding only 8% of Corbyn voting members thought anti semitism was a serious genuine issue.

Even Momentum disagree and are finally acknowledging the size and seriousness of the issue.

Labour antisemitism more widespread than thought, Momentum says
Accusations should not be dismissed simply as rightwing smears, group says, urging Labour to deal with the problem

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...sm-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says

You are free to post those stories on here and the left leaning press could do the same if they thought there was a significant problem in the Tory party.

Yes, and the same report also says that “some of Mr Corbyn's opponents were opportunistically using the issue as a way to undermine his leadership”.

I reiterate, I am not saying that anti-semitism doesn’t exist or isn’t an issue within pockets of the Labour Party. However, when two examples of Tory anti-semitism, and some other examples of bigotry and bullying, from the same week get conveniently left out of the discussion, it suggests that the ‘outrage’ isn’t actually about anti-semitism at all, it’s just another opportunity to undermine the left, Labour and Corbyn. Pointing this hypocrisy out isn’t a deflection if the topic is antisemitism. By saying it is deflection, it suggests you don't view antisemitism as the issue but Labour as the issue.

nicko31 · Apr 3, 2018

I have to give it to Corbyn, he does stand by what he believes in.

Poor timing though with the sh1t storm going on around him

Norman Potting · Apr 3, 2018

I have no particular views on the guy but is someone able to explain in simple terms so that I can even understand how this all started. Something to do with him liking a cartoon, but now it seems to be anti semetic to talk a Jewish group?

Surf's Up · Apr 3, 2018

Where's Jeremy Corbyn

Seriously, where is he? He seems incapable of defending himself and appears to be entirely reliant on his puppeteers to answer his critics.

JC Footy Genius · Apr 3, 2018

midnight_rendezvous said:
Yes, and the same report also says that “some of Mr Corbyn's opponents were opportunistically using the issue as a way to undermine his leadership”.

I reiterate, I am not saying that anti-semitism doesn’t exist or isn’t an issue within pockets of the Labour Party. However, when two examples of Tory anti-semitism, and some other examples of bigotry and bullying, from the same week get conveniently left out of the discussion, it suggests that the ‘outrage’ isn’t actually about anti-semitism at all, it’s just another opportunity to undermine the left, Labour and Corbyn. Pointing this hypocrisy out isn’t a deflection if the topic is antisemitism. By saying it is deflection, it suggests you don't view antisemitism as the issue but Labour as the issue.

Yes I have already acknowledged some people will inevitably be exploiting this but thats a side issue compared with tackling the many very real instances of antisemitism in the Labour party.

Your examples of supposed antisemitism from the PM and Sajid Avid just look like a desperate attempt to see something that wasn't there/undermine the Tories/deflect from numerous examples on the Labour side. Indulging in the very behaviour you are complaining about.

You are comparing apples with oranges. Get back to me when you find the PM defending an antisemetic mural, hanging round, calling friends and defending rabid anti semites, Tory Mp's, Tory members complaining of anti semitism being ignored in the party and Jewish groups protesting against the party, the Leader and the inaction two years after an internal inquiry that was meant to sort this out. I will then condemn all of the above and any real cases of antisemitism found anywhere.

midnight_rendezvous · Apr 3, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
Yes I have already acknowledged some people will inevitably be exploiting this but thats a side issue compared with tackling the many very real instances of antisemitism in the Labour party.

Your examples of supposed antisemitism from the PM and Sajid Avid just look like a desperate attempt to see something that wasn't there/undermine the Tories/deflect from numerous examples on the Labour side. Indulging in the very behaviour you are complaining about.

You are comparing apples with oranges. Get back to me when you find the PM defending an antisemetic mural, hanging round, calling friends and defending rabid anti semites, Tory Mp's, Tory members complaining of anti semitism being ignored in the party and Jewish groups protesting against the party, the Leader and the inaction two years after an internal inquiry that was meant to sort this out. I will then condemn all of the above and any real cases of antisemitism found anywhere.

Classic case trying to make the claim that any criticism of the Tory party is strictly verboten because people would prefer criticism to be limited solely to Labour.

But ok if you want a prime example, take Jacob Rees-Mogg's speaking at an extreme-right fanatic's event in January. Apparently, he supposedly wasn't familiar with the pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic, white supremacist views of Lauder and his 'Traditional Britain' fringe group of radically right-wing Tories.

But Rees-Mogg has subsequently shown that he sees courting the extreme-right as an important facet of his leadership ambitions.

One of the clearest examples of this courtship of the extreme-right was his outright refusal to condemn the vile Britain First thugs who threatened to act as his Sturmabteilung brownshirts by intimidating and attacking anyone who dares to protest against him.

JC Footy Genius · Apr 3, 2018

midnight_rendezvous said:
Classic case trying to make the claim that any criticism of the Tory party is strictly verboten because people would prefer criticism to be limited solely to Labour.

But ok if you want a prime example, take Jacob Rees-Mogg's speaking at an extreme-right fanatic's event in January. Apparently, he supposedly wasn't familiar with the pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic, white supremacist views of Lauder and his 'Traditional Britain' fringe group of radically right-wing Tories.

But Rees-Mogg has subsequently shown that he sees courting the extreme-right as an important facet of his leadership ambitions.

One of the clearest examples of this courtship of the extreme-right was his outright refusal to condemn the vile Britain First thugs who threatened to act as his Sturmabteilung brownshirts by intimidating and attacking anyone who dares to protest against him.

No I'm clearly saying compare like with like and I said I will condemn any anti semitism wherever it is found.

Ok ... "I am shocked by the comments made by members of the Traditional Britain Group which I note from the Liberal Conspiracy website seem to have been made after I had addressed the dinner," Mr Rees-Mogg said.

"I can entirely disassociate myself with the Traditional Britain Group as I have never been a member or supporter."

He later told BBC's Newsnight: "I clearly made a mistake. I think the postings that we've recently seen are so deeply disgraceful and shocking that they have no place in decent political debate.

Now find similar statements by Corbyn about rabidly anti semetic groups he has actually supported and called friends.

Brighton Mod · Apr 3, 2018

midnight_rendezvous said:
Classic case trying to make the claim that any criticism of the Tory party is strictly verboten because people would prefer criticism to be limited solely to Labour.

But ok if you want a prime example, take Jacob Rees-Mogg's speaking at an extreme-right fanatic's event in January. Apparently, he supposedly wasn't familiar with the pro-Nazi, anti-Semitic, white supremacist views of Lauder and his 'Traditional Britain' fringe group of radically right-wing Tories.

But Rees-Mogg has subsequently shown that he sees courting the extreme-right as an important facet of his leadership ambitions.

One of the clearest examples of this courtship of the extreme-right was his outright refusal to condemn the vile Britain First thugs who threatened to act as his Sturmabteilung brownshirts by intimidating and attacking anyone who dares to protest against him.

Wow, whats all that in your first paragraph, you do have Corbyn tinted glasses. You are reading everything into this as an attack on Jeremy Corbyn and trying to divert every comment against the Tories. You have previously, vehemently claimed that this is a right wing press attempting to smear Corbyn and now even Momentum have disagreed with you. What will it take for you to accept anothers point of view?

portslade seagull · Apr 3, 2018

Brighton Mod said:
Wow, whats all that in your first paragraph, you do have Corbyn tinted glasses. You are reading everything into this as an attack on Jeremy Corbyn and trying to divert every comment against the Tories. You have previously, vehemently claimed that this is a right wing press attempting to smear Corbyn and now even Momentum have disagreed with you. What will it take for you to accept anothers point of view?

Corbyn to actually tell the truth. I very much doubt that will ever happen

midnight_rendezvous · Apr 3, 2018

Brighton Mod said:
Wow, whats all that in your first paragraph, you do have Corbyn tinted glasses. You are reading everything into this as an attack on Jeremy Corbyn and trying to divert every comment against the Tories. You have previously, vehemently claimed that this is a right wing press attempting to smear Corbyn and now even Momentum have disagreed with you. What will it take for you to accept anothers point of view?

For starters I have acknowledged several times that there is an issue. I never denied that. I am merely pointing out the opportunistic and utter hypocrisy of those in the media, The Tories, Blairites and people like yourself who refuse to see similar questionable actions within the Tory party (or prefer to ignore them and if anyone mentions them claim they are ‘deflecting’). As previously stated, pointing this hypocrisy out isn’t deflection if the issue is antisemitism. But quite clearly the issue isnt antisemitism at all. It’s Corbyn and Labour.

Oh and I see your original comments re Corbyn and Russia worked out well. Now I'm not saying that this lack of verifiable evidence represents any kind of conclusive proof that Russia didn't do it, but it does vindicate Jeremy Corbyn over his cautious evidence-seeking approach to the attack.

This announcement from the experts at Porton Down also provokes some very serious questions about Boris Johnson's behaviour, especially his claims that someone from Porton Down told him in "absolutely categorical" terms that there was "no doubt" that the agent was produced by the Russians.

Surely the Foreign Secretary spreading misinformation about such a serious attack on British soil is a resignation/sacking matter?

midnight_rendezvous · Apr 3, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
No I'm clearly saying compare like with like and I said I will condemn any anti semitism wherever it is found.

Ok ... "I am shocked by the comments made by members of the Traditional Britain Group which I note from the Liberal Conspiracy website seem to have been made after I had addressed the dinner," Mr Rees-Mogg said.

"I can entirely disassociate myself with the Traditional Britain Group as I have never been a member or supporter."

He later told BBC's Newsnight: "I clearly made a mistake. I think the postings that we've recently seen are so deeply disgraceful and shocking that they have no place in decent political debate.

Now find similar statements by Corbyn about rabidly anti semetic groups he has actually supported and called friends.

I could link you to the interview in Jewish News but I’m sure you’d scoff and claim it wasn’t good enough.

http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/exclusive-corbyn-interview/

Brighton Mod · Apr 4, 2018

midnight_rendezvous said:
For starters I have acknowledged several times that there is an issue. I never denied that. I am merely pointing out the opportunistic and utter hypocrisy of those in the media, The Tories, Blairites and people like yourself who refuse to see similar questionable actions within the Tory party (or prefer to ignore them and if anyone mentions them claim they are ‘deflecting’). As previously stated, pointing this hypocrisy out isn’t deflection if the issue is antisemitism. But quite clearly the issue isnt antisemitism at all. It’s Corbyn and Labour.

Oh and I see your original comments re Corbyn and Russia worked out well. Now I'm not saying that this lack of verifiable evidence represents any kind of conclusive proof that Russia didn't do it, but it does vindicate Jeremy Corbyn over his cautious evidence-seeking approach to the attack.

This announcement from the experts at Porton Down also provokes some very serious questions about Boris Johnson's behaviour, especially his claims that someone from Porton Down told him in "absolutely categorical" terms that there was "no doubt" that the agent was produced by the Russians.

Surely the Foreign Secretary spreading misinformation about such a serious attack on British soil is a resignation/sacking matter?

Wooh, here you go again straying off topic and blaming others for issues not linked to the thread. Regarding the nerve agent attacks, do you really believe that all of the information is being placed in the pblic domain? The fact that the PM has garnered so much support tells me that she feels she's on pretty solid ground and while the Russians, clearly desperate to know how we identified the agent and what we know, espouse a different story every day tells me they are more than frustrated, they'll keep digging themselves a deeper hole. The wait and see startegy that you advocate for Corbyn is flawed, its a wait and procastonate strategy and really has no defence.

midnight_rendezvous · Apr 4, 2018

Brighton Mod said:
Wooh, here you go again straying off topic and blaming others for issues not linked to the thread. Regarding the nerve agent attacks, do you really believe that all of the information is being placed in the pblic domain? The fact that the PM has garnered so much support tells me that she feels she's on pretty solid ground and while the Russians, clearly desperate to know how we identified the agent and what we know, espouse a different story every day tells me they are more than frustrated, they'll keep digging themselves a deeper hole. The wait and see startegy that you advocate for Corbyn is flawed, its a wait and procastonate strategy and really has no defence.

Erm, you raised Corbyn and Russia in your first post so how on earth am I going off topic

People claimed he was a Russian stoodge for asking for proof and it turns out there wasn’t any. So the good old ‘wait and see’ strategy kind of worked out in the end, eh? It is also utterly irrelevant what the PM ‘feels’ because that’s not how the law works. What it does call into question though, is Boris Johnson's claims about what the experts at Porton Down told him as they are absolutely irreconcilable with what the Porton Down experts themselves admitted yesterday. Either Boris Johnson was telling lies, or someone at Porton Down is telling lies. There's absolutely no way that both versions of this story can be true.

Brighton Mod · Apr 4, 2018

midnight_rendezvous said:
Erm, you raised Corbyn and Russia in your first post so how on earth am I going off topic People claimed he was a Russian stoodge for asking for proof and it turns out there wasn’t any. So the good old ‘wait and see’ strategy kind of worked out in the end, eh? It is also utterly irrelevant what the PM ‘feels’ because that’s not how the law works. What it does call into question though, is Boris Johnson's claims about what the experts at Porton Down told him as they are absolutely irreconcilable with what the Porton Down experts themselves admitted yesterday. Either Boris Johnson was telling lies, or someone at Porton Down is telling lies. There's absolutely no way that both versions of this story can be true.

Wait and see, are you now saying that this matter is concluded and that as there is no proof? Are you niave enough to believe that on this issue there isn't a plan behind what is said and what isn't and does Corbyn know what others within the government and the secret intelligance service don't .

For someone so eager to quote Tories in their previous texts and had been proven to be incorrect in their stance on anti semitism in the Labour party as contradicted by Momentum you now want to disregard what the PM has to say or feel on the subject. You choose your topic pathway very carefully, but always slanted towards Corbyn. Stand back and read some of your texts objectively, your counter arguements and claims are way out of line with reality and no ones really listening.

midnight_rendezvous · Apr 4, 2018

Brighton Mod said:
Wait and see, are you now saying that this matter is concluded and that as there is no proof? Are you niave enough to believe that on this issue there isn't a plan behind what is said and what isn't and does Corbyn know what others within the government and the secret intelligance service don't .

For someone so eager to quote Tories in their previous texts and had been proven to be incorrect in their stance on anti semitism in the Labour party as contradicted by Momentum you now want to disregard what the PM has to say or feel on the subject. You choose your topic pathway very carefully, but always slanted towards Corbyn. Stand back and read some of your texts objectively, your counter arguements and claims are way out of line with reality and no ones really listening.

If you had the ability to read you’d see in my previous post I said that I was not saying that a lack of verifiable evidence represents any kind of conclusive proof that Russia didn't do it, but it does vindicate Jeremy Corbyn over his cautious evidence-seeking approach to the attack. Again, if you had the ability to read you might have picked up on the fact I NEVER denied there was an issue with antisemitism within the Labour Party. The stark reality is people like you, who are so blinded by their desire to discredit Corbyn that they don’t even see antisemitism as the issue, but are merely using it as a stick to beat Corbyn with. If you genuinely cared about antisemitism or the moral integrity of politicians you’d turn that anger against others as well, in this case the Tories (who haven’t exactly had a brilliant week where moral integrity is concerned, as shown by the posts you have conveniently ignored). But, as you seem unwilling to do so, it leads me to the conclusion that, for all you posturing, this thread is nothing more than an opportunity for you to continue to discredit and undermine Corbyn.

tinycowboy · Apr 4, 2018

Brighton Mod said:
The wait and see startegy that you advocate for Corbyn is flawed, its a wait and procastonate strategy and really has no defence.

Brighton Mod said:
Wait and see

I'm on your side - rarely trust those with immutable and entrenched positions.

"Those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything."

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[Politics] Where's Jeremy Corbyn

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