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[Help] A request for advice concerning a bizarre car 'accident' and insurance kerfuffle



Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,337
Faversham
This is not a life or death issue but it is bizarre and I need some advice from the collected wisdom of NSC drivers.....

Three months ago, in December, someone drove into me in a supermarket car park. My insurer is via AA so you have to flit between them and the actual insurance company to get things done. The episode was a bit bizarre, and involved a woman driving a van slowly into the side of my car, putting a dent in my driver’s door. She had entered the main car park from a slip road (that is not part of the national ‘highway’) just as I was exiting into the same part of the car park. What normally happens in such cases is as shown in the attachment below. There is not a lot of room and there has to be a bit of give and take.

The collision was weird. I am not sure the other driver signalled to turn left into the part of the car par I was driving into. However, with me where I was, she continued to drive, slowly, at me. I braked and was stationary when she hit me. Whether her brakes failed or whether it was aggressive ‘get out my way’ driving I cannot tell. Her van was unscathed. She initially accused me of driving into her. But didn’t argue when I pointed out I was stationary and the front of her car had hit the side of mine.
I had to go into the supermarket to buy a pen, and we exchanged details. In the meantime she had called out the boyfriend. He was very keen to fix my door without involvement of insurers because it would cause his girlfriend’s ‘premium to rocket’. I was noncommittal.

After a day I decided, no, my car was expensive and new and I was not going to risk a bodge. I explained all this to my insurer and the AA and they told me to get repairs done. I had already found 3 estimates, and the one I preferred was approved.

Some weeks later the AA contacted me to say ‘did I give the wrong number plate as the car you say hit you is registered (somewhere way oop north) and not to the woman whose name you gave us’. I said, no indeed. I later checked the number plate online and it gave the same make of van to the one that hit me (albeit I could not access the name of the driver via my search).

The AA then started asking me for drawings and pictures and google map images because they ‘couldn’t understand’ what had happened. I sent them things.

A few more weeks later I received separate letters from the AA and the insurer to say that the accident was my fault as I had driven across a stop line into an oncoming vehicle, and that I would lose my no claim bonus going forward.

Obviously I phoned both the insurer and the AA. No, they had not been able to trace the other driver. The reason for their decision was because ‘we can’t prove that your version of events is correct’. I asked them if they were accusing me of being a liar. They said ‘no, but it is difficult to prove who is right when it is one word against another’.

However, and here is the rub, the AA still have not been able to obtain a response from the owner of the other vehicle or its insurer. So there is no ‘other’ version of events.I pointed out to them that it was a poor show that they were in effect taking sides with the other party, especially given that they had no statement from the other party.

The AA then said they would try to contact the other party and their insurer again. Given that it is now 3 months since the episode, the AA found, when they contacted the supermarket, that the CCTV records were deleted. Why act so late?

My feeling is the AA and insurer want to wheedle out of their obligations here. Clearly I have not made all this stuff up (I gave them a name, address and phone number of the woman involved – they could easily phone the number and pop round to the address). Why would I supply my insurer with a false name and address and phone number? Either I am lying or the other driver is lying – surely it is not an insoluble problem?

So my questions are these:

1. Do the laws of the highway apply in a supermarket car park regarding who gives way to whom? (I ask this because I claim I entered the space where I was hit before the other car turned in, but my insurer is caiming 'this is just my word against theirs' - and please note 'they' have not claimed anything; it may be the laws don't apply in a car park anyway so the AA is just making up things).

2. If a driver in a car park thinks they have a right of way does this allow them to drive into any vehicle in their way?

3. If I had decided to not involve the other driver, I could easily have claimed that I found impact damage to my car when returning from shopping – if I had done so would the AA and my insurer accuse me of lying or say the damage was my fault, or shrug their shoulders, pay up and move on?

4. Having approved the repairs (which cost about £1,000) can the AA and the insurer later turn round and say ‘actually we have now decided it was your fault so we are going to penalise you via your next policy’? (If there was any doubt about culpability at the time of the repair I would have not gone to the repairer I was recommended by the car dealership, but would have gone to the bloke who quoted £600 and I would have paid him out of my pocket, not involving the insurer. So surely the insurer and the AA can’t backslide as they appear to want to do, after the repairs have been done and the bills paid?).

I am prepared to get proper legal advice if my insurer continues to **** me around, but I though, first, I’d see the views if the NSC hive mind, especially the views of those who know about these things….

key picture.gif
 


happypig

Staring at the rude boys
May 23, 2009
7,935
Eastbourne
1. Road Traffic Law applies in a car park like this, the highway code less so as there are no rules as to how markings or signs should be displayed. Basically you have to keep your eyes open and wits about you.
2. No, this *could* be interpreted as driving without due care and attention if you can get OB interested (tip:they wont be).

As toy your insurance company, like all insurance companies, their primary aim is not to pay out. This will have been decided by a junior in the team as it's very low level. I would write to them, picking holes in everything and noting all conflicting information you have been given. You want to get your case seen by someone more senior. Threaten legal action and the Insurance ombudsman. Never, ever, give up with these soul-sucking ********
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,337
Faversham
1. Road Traffic Law applies in a car park like this, the highway code less so as there are no rules as to how markings or signs should be displayed. Basically you have to keep your eyes open and wits about you.
2. No, this *could* be interpreted as driving without due care and attention if you can get OB interested (tip:they wont be).

As toy your insurance company, like all insurance companies, their primary aim is not to pay out. This will have been decided by a junior in the team as it's very low level. I would write to them, picking holes in everything and noting all conflicting information you have been given. You want to get your case seen by someone more senior. Threaten legal action and the Insurance ombudsman. Never, ever, give up with these soul-sucking ********

Many thanks for your reply :thumbsup:
 


Sirnormangall

Well-known member
Sep 21, 2017
2,937
You should first make a formal complaint to the AA / insurer ( whoever your contract is with). Follow their complaints process through to the end ( their regulator requires that to be a relatively quick process) until you get their “final” letter. At that point if you remain unhappy with their response you can take your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS). The FOS is free to consumers, impartial and usually does a pretty good job.
 


LamieRobertson

Not awoke
Feb 3, 2008
46,486
SHOREHAM BY SEA
Always take photos ..even if the 'other side' admit liability....wont help you now....but all the best Harry

PS..not protected your no claims bonus?

PPS Should we not be having a poll here?
 




studio150

Well-known member
Jul 30, 2011
29,555
On the Border
The first thing is your no claim discount is just that a NO CLAIM discount, it is not a NO BLAME discount.

Your Insurers are therefore just adhering to the conditions of your policy, in that unless you opted for protected no claim discount, then in the event of an incident, unless a full recovery is made form the third party or their insurers then your no claim discount will be reduced in line with Insurers scale at your next renewal.

I know this is probably not what you want to hear.

However you certainly did the right thing by not accepting the boyfriends offer to repair your vehicle, given that you would not have much chance of getting any poor workmanship rectified.

I assume that you do not have uninsured loss recovery either on your motor policy or separately as I would expect the Insurer of the ULR cover to be more proactive in chasing the third party and their Insurers to recover your excess payment together and other out of pocket expenses. If they had successfully obtained these for you, then it is a clear indication that you were not at fault for the accident and your no claim discount would have remained at the level it was prior to the incident.

The issue is clearly that the AA and your Insurer have not been proactive in chasing the third party or their Insurers, but would seem to have just issued standard letters along the lines of we have been notified of an incident involving your policyholder... and then just followed up after about a month and having not had any response are effectively washing their hands of the incident in terms of seeking a recovery from the third party or their Insurers.

As there are no independent witnesses to the incident going down the route of the small claims court is probably not the answer.

While the level of service has been below the standard that you were expecting your Insurer is just fulfilling their requirements under your policy.

In terms of your point 3, hit while your vehicle was unattended, the result from your Insurer would be as now, in that they would have paid the claim but reduced your no claim discount.

If you believe that you were not informed at the time you contacted your Insurer that you may loss your no claim discount if a full recovery is made then follow through with a complaint. I would just add a warning that the Insurer is likely to have a recording of the telephone calls with you, and if they did mention this to you but it did not register then they will be unlikely to move from their current position.

If they didn't and the claim process is not clearly laid out in your policy or any any literature issued with the policy, then you are more likely to see a favourable outcome, although it may need to go all the way to the FOS as mentioned in an earlier post.
 








dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,185
1. Do the laws of the highway apply in a supermarket car park regarding who gives way to whom? (I ask this because I claim I entered the space where I was hit before the other car turned in, but my insurer is caiming 'this is just my word against theirs' - and please note 'they' have not claimed anything; it may be the laws don't apply in a car park anyway so the AA is just making up things).

2. If a driver in a car park thinks they have a right of way does this allow them to drive into any vehicle in their way?

3. If I had decided to not involve the other driver, I could easily have claimed that I found impact damage to my car when returning from shopping – if I had done so would the AA and my insurer accuse me of lying or say the damage was my fault, or shrug their shoulders, pay up and move on?

4. Having approved the repairs (which cost about £1,000) can the AA and the insurer later turn round and say ‘actually we have now decided it was your fault so we are going to penalise you via your next policy’? (If there was any doubt about culpability at the time of the repair I would have not gone to the repairer I was recommended by the car dealership, but would have gone to the bloke who quoted £600 and I would have paid him out of my pocket, not involving the insurer. So surely the insurer and the AA can’t backslide as they appear to want to do, after the repairs have been done and the bills paid?).

I am prepared to get proper legal advice if my insurer continues to **** me around, but I though, first, I’d see the views if the NSC hive mind, especially the views of those who know about these things….
1. is scarecely relevant, bcause
2. if you weren't moving then no-one has the right to drive into you - they have to stop if they can. If you park on the wrong side of the motorway it's illegal to nudge you out of the way (unless they're going too fast to miss you, of course!)
3. it would make no difference, you would still lose your no claim bonus
4. yes, in future policies they can charge you whatever they like. It's why (even for biggish claims like this) it might not be worth claiming - the combination of higher premiums for 5 years plus loss of no claims bonus can cost you a lot ore than the £1,000. If they accepted it was none of your fault, they would still put up next year's premium - it's why they have the box on search engines asking if you have been involved in any accidents or have made any claims in the last 5 years - so they bump up the premium even when it wasn't your fault.

Bloodsucking leeches, they are.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,337
Faversham
1. is scarecely relevant, bcause
2. if you weren't moving then no-one has the right to drive into you - they have to stop if they can. If you park on the wrong side of the motorway it's illegal to nudge you out of the way (unless they're going too fast to miss you, of course!)
3. it would make no difference, you would still lose your no claim bonus
4. yes, in future policies they can charge you whatever they like. It's why (even for biggish claims like this) it might not be worth claiming - the combination of higher premiums for 5 years plus loss of no claims bonus can cost you a lot ore than the £1,000. If they accepted it was none of your fault, they would still put up next year's premium - it's why they have the box on search engines asking if you have been involved in any accidents or have made any claims in the last 5 years - so they bump up the premium even when it wasn't your fault.

Bloodsucking leeches, they are.

Many thanks for the info. I guess I need to ensure the insurer accepts I was stationary. Otherwise it looks like I'm going to be screwed one way or another :(
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,337
Faversham
You should first make a formal complaint to the AA / insurer ( whoever your contract is with). Follow their complaints process through to the end ( their regulator requires that to be a relatively quick process) until you get their “final” letter. At that point if you remain unhappy with their response you can take your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS). The FOS is free to consumers, impartial and usually does a pretty good job.

Thanks!
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,337
Faversham
Always take photos ..even if the 'other side' admit liability....wont help you now....but all the best Harry

PS..not protected your no claims bonus?

PPS Should we not be having a poll here?

Cheers! I may have protected no claims.....Just reading the insurer's letter again: 'your fault as from (my) diagram (I) pulled out into the path of a correctly proceeding vehicle'. Not what I told them. When I phoned them a week ago they were surprised and said they'd review the case....nothing back yet....meanwhile AA are doing a separate investigation ('AA legal assistance'). Not sure who is advising whom. All a bit of a mess. Perhaps a poll would help :lolol:
 


LamieRobertson

Not awoke
Feb 3, 2008
46,486
SHOREHAM BY SEA
Cheers! I may have protected no claims.....Just reading the insurer's letter again: 'your fault as from (my) diagram (I) pulled out into the path of a correctly proceeding vehicle'. Not what I told them. When I phoned them a week ago they were surprised and said they'd review the case....nothing back yet....meanwhile AA are doing a separate investigation ('AA legal assistance'). Not sure who is advising whom. All a bit of a mess. Perhaps a poll would help :lolol:

Hope you are getting all this in writing
 






Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,337
Faversham
Many thanks for your detailed reply. I have answered some points inline :thumbsup:

The first thing is your no claim discount is just that a NO CLAIM discount, it is not a NO BLAME discount.

Your Insurers are therefore just adhering to the conditions of your policy, in that unless you opted for protected no claim discount, then in the event of an incident, unless a full recovery is made form the third party or their insurers then your no claim discount will be reduced in line with Insurers scale at your next renewal.

I know this is probably not what you want to hear.

No worries. That's clear enough


However you certainly did the right thing by not accepting the boyfriends offer to repair your vehicle, given that you would not have much chance of getting any poor workmanship rectified.

I assume that you do not have uninsured loss recovery either on your motor policy or separately as I would expect the Insurer of the ULR cover to be more proactive in chasing the third party and their Insurers to recover your excess payment together and other out of pocket expenses. If they had successfully obtained these for you, then it is a clear indication that you were not at fault for the accident and your no claim discount would have remained at the level it was prior to the incident.

I have 'purchased the Motor Excess Protection' and have been 'reimbursed' already....so I will follow that up if necessary

The issue is clearly that the AA and your Insurer have not been proactive in chasing the third party or their Insurers, but would seem to have just issued standard letters along the lines of we have been notified of an incident involving your policyholder... and then just followed up after about a month and having not had any response are effectively washing their hands of the incident in terms of seeking a recovery from the third party or their Insurers.

Indeed.

As there are no independent witnesses to the incident going down the route of the small claims court is probably not the answer.

While the level of service has been below the standard that you were expecting your Insurer is just fulfilling their requirements under your policy.

In terms of your point 3, hit while your vehicle was unattended, the result from your Insurer would be as now, in that they would have paid the claim but reduced your no claim discount.

OK. Fair enough

If you believe that you were not informed at the time you contacted your Insurer that you may loss your no claim discount if a full recovery is made then follow through with a complaint. I would just add a warning that the Insurer is likely to have a recording of the telephone calls with you, and if they did mention this to you but it did not register then they will be unlikely to move from their current position.

Thanks for that advice. I shall tread carefully


If they didn't and the claim process is not clearly laid out in your policy or any any literature issued with the policy, then you are more likely to see a favourable outcome, although it may need to go all the way to the FOS as mentioned in an earlier post.

OK - that is extremely helpful. Many thanks for your time :thumbsup:
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,337
Faversham
Given the overhead view she crossed a Giveway Line too so you both should've been travelling pretty slowly?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...bbd8b01ce6d7dbe2!8m2!3d51.3231707!4d0.8748791

It's a weird bit of car park design. Only marginally better than those ones with round give way signs that you get on the motorway.

Slowly indeed! In the photo I pasted, not only did the car equivalent of the one that hit me let the other car out, they let out the car following too! As I said, the one that hit me was in slow motion, and I had actually stopped, and watched her slo mo drive into me. I suspect it was vindictiveness to be honest. I don't think she was trying to stop at all. But I can't prove it.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,337
Faversham


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,337
Faversham




studio150

Well-known member
Jul 30, 2011
29,555
On the Border
Many thanks for your detailed reply. I have answered some points inline :thumbsup:



OK - that is extremely helpful. Many thanks for your time :thumbsup:

The Excess Protection as a separate policy from ULR does not indicate whether you were to blame for the incident or not. All it is effectively doing is amending your main policy, to one with a nil excess rather than the £250 or whatever level you took. It will therefore have no bearing on whether you will have your no claim discount reinstated.
Any ULR policy which would cover the cost of a hire car while yours was being repaired, the excess (if you didn't have the separate cover) and other out of pocket expenses is the one where you would obtain a clearer indication of fault, as if your ULR Insurer recovered the costs then it is a clear indication that you were not at fault.

Just wanted to clarify rather than getting your hopes up unduly.
 


dangull

Well-known member
Feb 24, 2013
5,105
I am not an expert Harry, but it seems you have been unlucky here, and fallen victim to insurers more interested in making money than protecting their client.

With hindsight, the offer of the other party to repair your damaged car may have been better, but of course risky in many ways. Hope you get some sort of justice.
 



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