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[Politics] Hammond's Budget



PILTDOWN MAN

PILTDOWN MAN

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 15, 2004
18,709
Hurst Green
sahel said:
Many people would say that low growth is what the planet needs. In that case what is important is proper distribution of current and future wealth. That means taxing wealth not just income. For example, higher inheritance taxes, increased capiral gains tax and annual wealth taxes. Just as one example restricting pension contribution relief on income to 20 % would bring in an extra 13 billion
a year. It also means cutting out tax havens and not reducing corporation tax below other european countries. Lots of scope for increased taxes without hitting poorer or middle income people. And with interest rates so low lots of scope for governments to borrow and spend on infrastructure etc which will also improve peoples' lives
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Will not, has never, won't in the future, work. You can't over tax the wealthy.
 




M

Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
16,661
Fiveways
sahel said:
Many people would say that low growth is what the planet needs. In that case what is important is proper distribution of current and future wealth. That means taxing wealth not just income. For example, higher inheritance taxes, increased capiral gains tax and annual wealth taxes. Just as one example restricting pension contribution relief on income to 20 % would bring in an extra 13 billion
a year. It also means cutting out tax havens and not reducing corporation tax below other european countries. Lots of scope for increased taxes without hitting poorer or middle income people. And with interest rates so low lots of scope for governments to borrow and spend on infrastructure etc which will also improve peoples' lives
Click to expand...

There's little I disagree with in this post, but would add that you ought to read -- and might like -- Piketty.
 


Bold Seagull

Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,807
Hove
PILTDOWN MAN said:
Will not, has never, won't in the future, work. You can't over tax the wealthy.
Click to expand...

This is not really true, and half the battle with an entrenched mindset we have over a progressive economic model. A study in the US recently where different states have different taxation on the wealthy showed that migration from states that raised 'wealth taxes' didn't materialise. This mythology of the rich leaving, or not recruiting, or not producing did not materialise. Tax receipts didn't fall, and the states didn't see a drop in comparison to those with lower taxes. I tell you what does not work, trickle down economics because it can only be achieved with sustained significant economic growth. We are at an economic impasse because the economic model of cutting taxes to encourage economic growth isn't materialising, which is why year on year the economic targets have been missed because growth simply cannot make the tax receipt deficit. There are other models, and to use examples of short periods in the past as examples of it something not working is a mindset we have to get out of.
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,313
Bold Seagull said:
This is not really true, and half the battle with an entrenched mindset we have over a progressive economic model. A study in the US recently where different states have different taxation on the wealthy showed that migration from states that raised 'wealth taxes' didn't materialise.
Click to expand...

would there be a link to this? im led to believe there are considerable movements of people and businesses across the US to find lower tax (leading to very odd places for business to locate). applies elsewhere, there's a lot of French ex-pats in the UK to work for French banks under lower taxation. we also complain about tax havens, how can that be a problem if businesses do not migrate to other domiciles on tax rate? or the rich sportsman, businessmen who live abroad? not really sure how we can say wealthy wont move due to tax when there's so many complaints about them doing so.
 


Bold Seagull

Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,807
Hove
beorhthelm said:
would there be a link to this? im led to believe there are considerable movements of people and businesses across the US to find lower tax (leading to very odd places for business to locate). applies elsewhere, there's a lot of French ex-pats in the UK to work for French banks under lower taxation. we also complain about tax havens, how can that be a problem if businesses do not migrate to other domiciles on tax rate? or the rich sportsman, businessmen who live abroad? not really sure how we can say wealthy wont move due to tax when there's so many complaints about them doing so.
Click to expand...

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/nov/20/if-you-tax-the-rich-they-wont-leave-us-data-contradicts-millionaires-threats

Who makes the complaints about them doing so I wonder? ???

Anyway, my point was necessarily about taxing wealth, it was about economic policy of cutting taxation to raise tax revenues which only works with considerable economic growth. We are not predicted to have that growth, so the economic trickle down model simply does't work, as we have experienced budget after budget.
 






Simster

Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,213
Surrey
portslade seagull said:
Still recovering from it though
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Absolute nonsense.

They've had 10 years to put things right, I don't recall them saying "it'll take well over 10 years of slashing public services to sort out this mess" when they first campaigned to get back into power. All you're doing is giving them carte blanche to mismanage the economy, and not bother with trifling things like putting together a costed manifesto. Let me guess, you're pro-Brexit too. :rolleyes: You'll still be blaming Labour in another 10 years time while the Tories continue this race to the bottom.
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,313
Bold Seagull said:
Anyway, my point was necessarily about taxing wealth, it was about economic policy of cutting taxation to raise tax revenues which only works with considerable economic growth. We are not predicted to have that growth, so the economic trickle down model simply does't work, as we have experienced budget after budget.
Click to expand...

thats a odd point to make when someone says "you cant over tax the wealthy". theres a significant difference between policy of raising tax and what you are now talking about, lowering taxes to promote growth. and there's no "trickle down" models, its not a recognised economic theory. the Laffer curve on the other hand is, which tells us that there's an optimum for tax rates and revenue, if you tax too high and you'll get less revenue. which is nothing special, its the same as price elasticty applied to most goods and services.
 




Bold Seagull

Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,807
Hove
beorhthelm said:
thats a odd point to make when someone says "you cant over tax the wealthy". theres a significant difference between policy of raising tax and what you are now talking about, lowering taxes to promote growth. and there's no "trickle down" models, its not a recognised economic theory. the Laffer curve on the other hand is, which tells us that there's an optimum for tax rates and revenue, if you tax too high and you'll get less revenue. which is nothing special, its the same as price elasticty applied to most goods and services.
Click to expand...

Blimey, I haven't heard the Laffer Curve mentioned for a long time, Reagan's favourite tool that doubled the deficit, tripled government debt, and had to be undone by the next Republican president Bush snr. The biggest issue with the Curve is the assumption that the wealthy will become idle if taxed more. Fundamentally, all value in an economy is created by labour - the obligation to work to purchase the necessities in life. There are plenty of other reports to suggest Laffer was wrong by states with a higher income tax rate outperforming those with none.https://itep.org/states-with-high-rate-income-taxes-are-still-outperforming-no-tax-states/

It is easier to find critiques of Arthur Laffer's model than it is support to be honest.
 




LlcoolJ

LlcoolJ

Mama said knock you out.
Oct 14, 2009
12,982
Sheffield
Simster said:
Absolute nonsense.

They've had 10 years to put things right, I don't recall them saying "it'll take well over 10 years of slashing public services to sort out this mess" when they first campaigned to get back into power. All you're doing is giving them carte blanche to mismanage the economy, and not bother with trifling things like putting together a costed manifesto. Let me guess, you're pro-Brexit too. :rolleyes: You'll still be blaming Labour in another 10 years time while the Tories continue this race to the bottom.
Click to expand...
Yeah because the Daily Mail said it's their fault so he believes it. Never mind reality.
 






P

portslade seagull

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2003
17,617
portslade
Simster said:
Absolute nonsense.

They've had 10 years to put things right, I don't recall them saying "it'll take well over 10 years of slashing public services to sort out this mess" when they first campaigned to get back into power. All you're doing is giving them carte blanche to mismanage the economy, and not bother with trifling things like putting together a costed manifesto. Let me guess, you're pro-Brexit too. :rolleyes: You'll still be blaming Labour in another 10 years time while the Tories continue this race to the bottom.
Click to expand...

Do you honestly believe Labour would have managed the last 10yrs any better ?? . We would be in a much worse state. And I'm not a blue but cannot support Labour under its current leader
 






JC Footy Genius

JC Footy Genius

Bringer of TRUTH
Jun 9, 2015
10,568
I think we can take it as read that the Economic legacy of the 2008 crash would have been pinned on the tories if they had been power as much as Labour are getting blamed. Suck it up comrades.
 






ManOfSussex

ManOfSussex

We wunt be druv
Apr 11, 2016
14,748
Rape of Hastings, Sussex
dc.JPG
 








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