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Rare but life threatening condition: islamic fundamentalism vs torsades de pointes



Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,337
Faversham
I have been musing on this for a while. There are some medicines that are very useful, albeit in some cases mostly palliative (meaning lessening the symptoms without actually curing anything). To me this is a bit like religion: Christianity for example; or Islam. You pray a bit, and feel better.

However some of these medicines can, in a tiny number of cases, cause a lethal side effect. Terfenadine was a drug for alleviating hay fever. Palliative. But in a tiny number of patients it caused a lethal heart condition called torsades de pointes (TDP). What happens is that the heart rhythm is affected by the drug, and then you die. Because it is quite rare it took about 4 million prescriptions before it was noticed! About 50 people died.

The medical community shit its pants (in 1996 when this was recognised). Drug companies said ‘WTF! How can we find out when a new drug we are developing has a risk of this TDP and killing people? And when our drug is for something palliative, we really must ensure there is NO RISK’. Of course if a drug is to keep a cancer victim alive for an extra 6 months, who cares about an rare and lethal side effect?

One thing people noticed was that all drugs that cause TDP have an effect in the electrocardiogram (ECG). They cause what is known as QT prolongation. This means that part of the ECG is changed. Almost always the change is tiny. Does this help detecting a dangerous drug?

Not really. Quite a few drugs prolong QT without causing TDP. And quite a lot of these drugs have far more benefit than the risk associated with TDP. The risk/benefit relationship favours the drug.

So how does this relate to Islam? Islam is like QT prolongation. Sometime (very rarely) this can lead to death (a terrorist outrage). But is is far from the only cause of death..... but we are risk averse.

In medicine, any new drug that prolongs QT is ‘killed’ (withdrawn or banned from use) unless it can be proven to be safe. This means more animal testing. There are a few drugs that prolong QT that are now regarded as OK to use. Remember, QT prolongation is not death and nobody says it is. But there is a perceived risk, and if the benefit is small (palliative) then the risk always trumps the benefit. This perhaps is why some equate Islam with terrorism. There is a relationship . . . and it is not clear what it is exactly but why take any risk?

So where are we? OK, being a Muslim is like causing QT prolongation. The chances thatyou will run amok may well be very low. But what benefit do you bring? Does the benefit justify toleration of your presence when stacked up against the admittedly very low risk that you may run amok?

And what about all the other drugs that have side effects? (in my analogy these might be other ‘branded’ nutters of the like that murdered MP Cox)?

The bottom line is that we all do risk benefit assessments and we all do them biased in favour of what we want to be the outcome. How many of you smoke? That has 10000s greater chance of killing you than an Islamic terrorist.
However we can decide to not smoke . . . how can we control other people?

Not sure what the answer is to this . . . . . but I am very well aware that some people (a minority on here) have made up their mind long ago that risk trumps benefit . . . .

Would I take terfenadine? No. Would I ban all drugs that prolong QT interval? Absolutely not - especially the ones for schizophrenia and cancer.

(I did say that I'm crap at starting threads :lolol:)
 


studio150

Well-known member
Jul 30, 2011
29,555
On the Border
Well that was a long read.

So basically how risk adverse are you, is your perception of risk valid, and how do you lessen the risks without creating unforeseen consequences.

For fundamentalism it seems many are now saying lock them up or deport them - What a great country we live in.
 










happypig

Staring at the rude boys
May 23, 2009
7,935
Eastbourne
I have been musing on this for a while. There are some medicines that are very useful, albeit in some cases mostly palliative (meaning lessening the symptoms without actually curing anything). To me this is a bit like religion: Christianity for example; or Islam. You pray a bit, and feel better.

However some of these medicines can, in a tiny number of cases, cause a lethal side effect. Terfenadine was a drug for alleviating hay fever. Palliative. But in a tiny number of patients it caused a lethal heart condition called torsades de pointes (TDP). What happens is that the heart rhythm is affected by the drug, and then you die. Because it is quite rare it took about 4 million prescriptions before it was noticed! About 50 people died.

The medical community shit its pants (in 1996 when this was recognised). Drug companies said ‘WTF! How can we find out when a new drug we are developing has a risk of this TDP and killing people? And when our drug is for something palliative, we really must ensure there is NO RISK’. Of course if a drug is to keep a cancer victim alive for an extra 6 months, who cares about an rare and lethal side effect?

One thing people noticed was that all drugs that cause TDP have an effect in the electrocardiogram (ECG). They cause what is known as QT prolongation. This means that part of the ECG is changed. Almost always the change is tiny. Does this help detecting a dangerous drug?

Not really. Quite a few drugs prolong QT without causing TDP. And quite a lot of these drugs have far more benefit than the risk associated with TDP. The risk/benefit relationship favours the drug.

So how does this relate to Islam? Islam is like QT prolongation. Sometime (very rarely) this can lead to death (a terrorist outrage). But is is far from the only cause of death..... but we are risk averse.

In medicine, any new drug that prolongs QT is ‘killed’ (withdrawn or banned from use) unless it can be proven to be safe. This means more animal testing. There are a few drugs that prolong QT that are now regarded as OK to use. Remember, QT prolongation is not death and nobody says it is. But there is a perceived risk, and if the benefit is small (palliative) then the risk always trumps the benefit. This perhaps is why some equate Islam with terrorism. There is a relationship . . . and it is not clear what it is exactly but why take any risk?

So where are we? OK, being a Muslim is like causing QT prolongation. The chances thatyou will run amok may well be very low. But what benefit do you bring? Does the benefit justify toleration of your presence when stacked up against the admittedly very low risk that you may run amok?

And what about all the other drugs that have side effects? (in my analogy these might be other ‘branded’ nutters of the like that murdered MP Cox)?

The bottom line is that we all do risk benefit assessments and we all do them biased in favour of what we want to be the outcome. How many of you smoke? That has 10000s greater chance of killing you than an Islamic terrorist.
However we can decide to not smoke . . . how can we control other people?

Not sure what the answer is to this . . . . . but I am very well aware that some people (a minority on here) have made up their mind long ago that risk trumps benefit . . . .

Would I take terfenadine? No. Would I ban all drugs that prolong QT interval? Absolutely not - especially the ones for schizophrenia and cancer.

(I did say that I'm crap at starting threads :lolol:)

DER!

I thought everyone knew THAT...
 


lawros left foot

Glory hunting since 1969
Jun 11, 2011
13,673
Worthing
I have Brugada syndrome, which is a genetic heart condition similar to Long QT Syndrome. Among the triggers for arrhythmia/ cardiac arrest for me are Gabapentin, a strong pain killer, Zantac, an anti heartburn over the counter medication, sleeping on my right hand side, and Tesco take away curry. Over 60 shocks from my internal defribulator now, and counting.
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patreon
Oct 8, 2003
49,337
Faversham
Thanks for the feedback. This thread will of course disappear quickly into oblivion, but if it provided some food for thought then I'm happy. :cheers:
 



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