Trump

GOM · Jun 6, 2019

Gwylan said:
I'm not an expert in this but I note that the UK spends nearly £200 billion on healthcare - just over £40 bn on private health (something that's almost unknown in Germany). When you take that into account, the differential isn't so great (it's about 30% more).

A lot of that spend on private health is from company's private health plans - something not so different from Germany's tax on employers - that's one area to explore.

You're also not comparing like with like: I think (and Herr T can correct me here) that Germany's figure includes holistic medicine, even things like yoga classes - that aren't in the UK figure. Add those and we'd be a lot closer to the German model

You are suggesting that companies and individuals that currently pay into private health care plans would transfer that directly to the NHS. The difference is approx £95bn using @HT figure of 65% increase per capita, that would nowhere near cover it. Also there would be no need for private health care if we matched German spending so private costs/healthcare would not exist (would they ?). The funding would have to come from somewhere.

In favour of matching, but how ?

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 6, 2019

Gwylan said:
I'm not an expert in this but I note that the UK spends nearly £200 billion on healthcare - just over £40 bn on private health (something that's almost unknown in Germany). When you take that into account, the differential isn't so great (it's about 30% more).

A lot of that spend on private health is from company's private health plans - something not so different from Germany's tax on employers - that's one area to explore.

You're also not comparing like with like: I think (and Herr T can correct me here) that Germany's figure includes holistic medicine, even things like yoga classes - that aren't in the UK figure. Add those and we'd be a lot closer to the German model

Something else to consider is high earners in Germany, typically over 60k per annum, can and will opt of the state health care insurance system as it’s cheaper to go private above this threshold.

As an aside, typically both state and private will access the same hospitals, GPs and dentists etc. There’s no division like in the U.K.

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 6, 2019

GOM said:
The funding would have to come from somewhere.

In favour of matching, but how ?

Just do what the Germans do. Work out how much a first class fit-for-purpose healthcare service will cost and tax people accordingly. It’s really this simple.

sydney · Jun 6, 2019

meanwhile the incumbents are absolutely rinsing the country ........35 million tax payers paying 30 quid a week ...?? eeeeeellllloooooo i can't believe all you brainy ***** can't get a ****ing grip ......do the sums and get back to me ....ive done the sums for oz 51 million in in tax revenue alone +fuel , alcohol, tobacco exise...ha ha ha ...are we awake yet ...??
per week that is .

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 6, 2019

As an aside, my dentist is female and has a massive tooth tattooed on her forearm.

beorhthelm · Jun 6, 2019

Gwylan said:
€375 billion - about £330 billion

http://www.gbe-bund.de/oowa921-inst...mmer=522&p_sprache=E&p_indsp=-&p_aid=35175597

If your £120 billion is correct, then Germany spends roughly twice as much as us per capita

EDIT: Just checked and we spend about £155 billion on NHS (£120 bn is just England). That means that Germany spends about 65% more than us per capita

not even close to correct. see graph, per capita is slightly less. btw, US per capita spending is north of $8k! its very difficult to compare health spending, different mixes of public, private how thats reported and even what counts as healthcare. and this says little for clinical outcomes, differences in particular areas and life expectancy.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/DDN-20181129-2

agree though at one level we simply need to spend some more on healthcare, politicians cant keep promising 1st rate on 2nd rate costings.

Chicken Run · Jun 6, 2019

vegster said:
Even less " Supporters " of Trump on the streets also, just a stream of right wing Tories and Farage going into the US embassy tonight.

Gwylan · Jun 6, 2019

beorhthelm said:
not even close to correct. see graph, per capita is slightly less.

I wasn't that far out. I said that Germany spent about 30% more per head and your graph suggests it's more like 18 to 20%. I was doing sums in my head looking at a ballpark figure. The point is that Germany spends quite a bit more

GOM · Jun 6, 2019

Herr Tubthumper said:
Just do what the Germans do. Work out how much a first class fit-for-purpose healthcare service will cost and tax people accordingly. It’s really this simple.

Oh I wish it could happen that simply. Anything is simple if all it takes is to say just do it. Unfortunately we live in the real world where change is a lot more difficult.

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 6, 2019

GOM said:
Oh I wish it could happen that simply. Anything is simple if all it takes is to say just do it. Unfortunately we live in the real world where change is a lot more difficult.

I agree. If any U.K. party came out and said, “right, your taxes are going up 30% to properly fund the NHS” they’d be laughed at. Ignoring my semi-serious and tedious wouldn’t-happen-in-Germany line for a minute, we pay more tax here and funnily enough stuff works: trains run well and cheaply, health is brilliant, schools are fine and university education is free. Part of the battle is the acceptance than the way these services are run was decided many decades ago and is generally free of political ideology.

daveinplzen · Jun 6, 2019

Chicken Run said:

Aw bless. a Trump supporter has given up his partner in order to welcome Trump. Cant say they dont make sacrifices.

schmunk · Jun 6, 2019

Herr Tubthumper said:
I agree. If any U.K. party came out and said, “right, your taxes are going up 30% to properly fund the NHS” they’d be laughed at. Ignoring my semi-serious and tedious wouldn’t-happen-in-Germany line for a minute, we pay more tax here and funnily enough stuff works: trains run well and cheaply, health is brilliant, schools are fine and university education is free. Part of the battle is the acceptance than the way these services are run was decided many decades ago and is generally free of political ideology.

NHS spending is only about 20% of public sector expenditure, so increasing this by 30% would only require taxes to increase by 6%.

Gwylan · Jun 6, 2019

Herr Tubthumper said:
I agree. If any U.K. party came out and said, “right, your taxes are going up 30% to properly fund the NHS” they’d be laughed at. Ignoring my semi-serious and tedious wouldn’t-happen-in-Germany line for a minute, we pay more tax here and funnily enough stuff works: trains run well and cheaply, health is brilliant, schools are fine and university education is free. Part of the battle is the acceptance than the way these services are run was decided many decades ago and is generally free of political ideology.

Rather crucially, businesses pay more tax in Germany - something that seems to be widely accepted. And yes, individual taxes are higher too (but not 30% higher).

But you're spot on about it's a situation that's widely accepted. As I keep pointing to people who talk about Corbyn's 'far left' agenda - his policies aren't a million miles away from Merkel's centre-right government.

How long this state of affairs will last, I don't know. The AfD is making noises about being a low-tax economy but they're a party that always ready to split (and also seems to be at odds with many of its supporters on this issue).

GOM · Jun 6, 2019

schmunk said:
NHS spending is only about 20% of public sector expenditure, so increasing this by 30% would only require taxes to increase by 6%.

Remember you are talking about expenditure from total income, not just from income tax. So 6% rise on VAT, business rates, corporation tax, inheritance tax, NI, insurance tax,etc etc. This would not happen, it would be added on a few areas that many would no doubt be happy with and others would not.

vegster · Jun 6, 2019

Herr Tubthumper said:
Just do what the Germans do. Work out how much a first class fit-for-purpose healthcare service will cost and tax people accordingly. It’s really this simple.

I think a lot of the problem is that successive Tory governments get elected on a " Low Taxation " manifesto and pledge to keep Income Tax and indirect taxation low or to try to cut it further. However, the stagnation of wages has meant that in order to reduce taxation there has been an ongoing increase in the allowable earnings before your wage becomes taxable. So, poorer people ie, many of us, pay virtually no tax and NI every month !

My last months pay packet saw me contribute £71.20 Income Tax and NI of £82.09 to the country in order to support the NHS and government agencies, so my monthly contribution will pay for a nurse for a day and a half. Is it any wonder we are in a mess ?

drew · Jun 6, 2019

GOM said:
Genuinely interested. The NHS annual budget is as far as I know (happy to be corrected) somewhere over £120bn. Germany has a higher population but not too disproportionate, so, how much does the German healthcare system/model raise/spend.

Would be interesting as a rough comparison to see how much more we need to contribute to the NHS to bring it up to a similar level.

According to the world bank, based on figures from 2016, Germany spent 11.14% of GDP on health whereas we only spent 9.76%. Assuming the percentages were roughly the same for the following year, Germany's GDP in 2017 was $3.5t and ours was $2.5t. Based on that, it's clear to see that Germany spend considerably more on health than we do. Germany's population is about 82m and ours 66m so they are about 25% bigger than us.

In terms of increasing taxation, surely whatever government is in place needs to ensure that companies cannot evade tax and surely it makes sense that corporation tax is the same as the basic level of income tax. Tories will argue that will drive business away but they seem to being a good job of doing that with lower corporation tax anyway!!!

Unfortunately, it's not just the NHS that needs bolstering, the police, education, social care, early years etc etc.

Weststander · Jun 6, 2019

Trump the hypocrite.

‘Honouring’ servicemen and women this week, whilst previously sneering at John McCain:

“He’s not a war hero. He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.”

Mr. McCain, a naval aviator, was shot down during the Vietnam War and held prisoner for more than five years in Hanoi, refusing early release even after being repeatedly beaten.

Trump the coward.

Gully Forever · Jun 6, 2019

I wonder what the reaction in the united kingdom would be, if the American citizens had a huge blow up doll of one of our most important figures.

How about huge blow up dolls of the royals sucking off each other. I would actually be laughing my head off. as its so true.

Bold Seagull · Jun 6, 2019

Weststander said:
Trump the hypocrite.

‘Honouring’ servicemen and women this week, whilst previously sneering at John McCain:

“He’s not a war hero. He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.”

Mr. McCain, a naval aviator, was shot down during the Vietnam War and held prisoner for more than five years in Hanoi, refusing early release even after being repeatedly beaten.

Trump the coward.

Trump the draft dodger who obtained 4 student deferments and a medical deferment to avoid service in Vietnam. He said "I was never a fan of that war"..."I thought it was a terrible war"...

To say the stuff he said about say John McCain just shows what a conceited narcissistic hypocritical man he really is.

Papa Lazarou · Jun 6, 2019

Gully Forever said:
I wonder what the reaction in the united kingdom would be, if the American citizens had a huge blow up doll of one of our most important figures.

How about huge blow up dolls of the royals sucking off each other. I would actually be laughing my head off. as its so true.

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