The Ken Livingstone saga

Dorset Seagull · Apr 5, 2017

Genuine question but what is it all about. He says that Hitler wanted the Jews to go to Israel but then later on went mad and killed 6 million of them. How does that make him a holocaust denier and anti Semitic? Also where does he get his theory from about Hitler.

I am looking to those that understand these things to fill in the gaps

Westdene Seagull · Apr 5, 2017

It doesn't - it's a storm about nothing. It's the Jewish community wanting to be offended. Much like the Christians getting all offended about the National Trust and Cadburys egg hunts not being called Easter egg hunts. Pathetic and both real pointers as to why religion should be defunct in the modern world.

beorhthelm · Apr 5, 2017

as far as i can tell, the Labour party has a problem internally as many support Palestinians, which is deemed inherently anti-Semitic by others. therefore anyone speaking about related matters must abhor any anti-Semitic thoughts or comment to prove they are not. Livingston's comments suggest that the world isn't quite as black and white, which isn't a possible position, so they go all offended.

meanwhile they dont do anything about the MP who caused the discussion Livingston was interviewing about. they posted something that, while to my mind logical, clearly could cause offense (send all the Jews to US and create Israel there). the party didnt want to be seen to punish a Muslim woman, so they went after Livingstone instead as a proxy for their need to be seen to punish someone. but they cant punish him much because what he said is fairly innocuous and arguably correct, if not entirely accurate. they give him a half punishment that settles nothing and here we are.

Kalimantan Gull · Apr 5, 2017

Yeah, it does seem that we* expect our political leaders to (a) be religious and (b) be pro-Israel, and to be an atheist who doesn't think Israel should get its own way with everything is apparently unfit to be a leader. (also in the case of male politicians (c) support a football team)

* and by 'we', I suppose that means the reactionary press?

Simster · Apr 5, 2017

Westdene Seagull said:
It doesn't - it's a storm about nothing. It's the Jewish community wanting to be offended. Much like the Christians getting all offended about the National Trust and Cadburys egg hunts not being called Easter egg hunts. Pathetic and both real pointers as to why religion should be defunct in the modern world.

This. The Jewish community in this country have a real problem with anyone putting any sort of slant on them being anything other than victims, regardless of context. It started when that bellend Evening Standard journo kept badgering him unreasonably as mayor and he accused the journo of being like an SS guard at a concentration camp, for "just following orders". Unfortunately, the journo was Jewish unbeknown to Ken Livingston, and promptly sought to make political capital out of it.

How typical of the modern Labour party to suspend him for nothing other than saying a few home truths, obviously worried a few rich benefactors would pull funding. Absolutely shameful.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

cheshunt seagull · Apr 5, 2017

beorhthelm said:
as far as i can tell, the Labour party has a problem internally as many support Palestinians, which is deemed inherently anti-Semitic by others. therefore anyone speaking about related matters must abhor any anti-Semitic thoughts or comment to prove they are not. Livingston's comments suggest that the world isn't quite as black and white, which isn't a possible position, so they go all offended.

meanwhile they dont do anything about the MP who caused the discussion Livingston was interviewing about. they posted something that, while to my mind logical, clearly could cause offense (send all the Jews to US and create Israel there). the party didnt want to be seen to punish a Muslim woman, so they went after Livingstone instead as a proxy for their need to be seen to punish someone. but they cant punish him much because what he said is fairly innocuous and arguably correct, if not entirely accurate. they give him a half punishment that settles nothing and here we are.

I don't see any problem with being critical of the actions of Israeli governments or raising uncomfortable questions about its creation. However I do have my doubts about Livingstone's motivation here, in the past he has made totally gratuitous references like calling a Jewish reporter a nazi guard. He seems to derive some pleasure from pushing the buttons that will upset the Jewish community and this extends beyond the wish for a more open debate on Israel/Palestine. I think he knows exactly what he is doing.

drew · Apr 5, 2017

Dorset Seagull said:
Genuine question but what is it all about. He says that Hitler wanted the Jews to go to Israel but then later on went mad and killed 6 million of them. How does that make him a holocaust denier and anti Semitic? Also where does he get his theory from about Hitler.

I am looking to those that understand these things to fill in the gaps

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

Having listened to his interview on 5live last night I believe this is the basis of his comments although he doesn't particularly defend his position well. From what I can tell, he fully accepts that Hitler hated Jews and packing them off to Palestine served part of a purpose of ridding Germany of Jews. However, I guess once the continent had descended into war, this process was no longer viable and they came up with a different solution that we are all aware of.

LamieRobertson · Apr 5, 2017

drew said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

Having listened to his interview on 5live last night I believe this is the basis of his comments although he doesn't particularly defend his position well. From what I can tell, he fully accepts that Hitler hated Jews and packing them off to Palestine served part of a purpose of ridding Germany of Jews. However, I guess once the continent had descended into war, this process was no longer viable and they came up with a different solution that we are all aware of.

i listened to that as well on the way home from the match ..i felt he was trying to come across as sincere but it didn't work imho ..worth reminding people that this all came about in his attempt to defend comments made by Naz Shah who has since apologised whether of her own volition or not is another matter

JC Footy Genius · Apr 5, 2017

If you happily swim in the pool of identity/grievance politics then you deserve all you get.

Dorset Seagull · Apr 5, 2017

drew said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

Having listened to his interview on 5live last night I believe this is the basis of his comments although he doesn't particularly defend his position well. From what I can tell, he fully accepts that Hitler hated Jews and packing them off to Palestine served part of a purpose of ridding Germany of Jews. However, I guess once the continent had descended into war, this process was no longer viable and they came up with a different solution that we are all aware of.

Excellent thanks for that as it adds some clarity to the issue

Buzzer · Apr 5, 2017

It's the Jewish community being very entitled to be offended by a man who wishes to conflate Hitler with Zionism by any means necessary. Livingstone knows what he's doing, he knows he's being offensive and he knows full well that Hitler wanting to expel Jews to another country in 1932 does not mean that he supported the aims of Zionism despite his puerile and deeply offensive claims. It's been debunked by many not least here in this BBC article. His claims that Hitler SUBSEQUENTLY went mad after 1932 also show him to be playing fast and loose with history seeing as Hitler's violent solutions to his perceived anti-semitic problem were well documented 10 years before that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36165298

I have no idea what gives a load of people on here the right to tell Jewish people what they can and can't find offensive but to tell them that they shouldn't be offended by these particular remarks shows remarkable presumption.

Buzzer · Apr 5, 2017

Dorset Seagull said:
Excellent thanks for that as it adds some clarity to the issue

I'd also draw your attention to this article for much better clarity.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/top-hi...ingstons-claim-that-hitler-supported-zionism/

Ken clearly has issues with the concept of a Jewish state and with Jews as a whole. Asked why he thought that British Jews have abandoned the Labour Party so dramatically in the last few years his reply that they have all become wealthy shows his mindset perfectly.

Jews. Money. Yep, that particular association isn't at all dodgy and certainly hasn't been the basis for harm against the Jewish community. Nice one, Ken.

Live by the sea · Apr 5, 2017

Simster said:
This. The Jewish community in this country have a real problem with anyone putting any sort of slant on them being anything other than victims, regardless of context. It started when that bellend Evening Standard journo kept badgering him unreasonably as mayor and he accused the journo of being like an SS guard at a concentration camp, for "just following orders". Unfortunately, the journo was Jewish unbeknown to Ken Livingston, and promptly sought to make political capital out of it.

How typical of the modern Labour party to suspend him for nothing other than saying a few home truths, obviously worried a few rich benefactors would pull funding. Absolutely shameful.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Simster - I admit I don't know much about this situation but you do sound as if you dislike Jewish people. Is there a reason behind it ? I saw a BBC headline that said the deputy labour leader said that Livingston what he said shamed the Labour Party. But you appear to disagree. Is it because you think all Jewish people like to be portrayed as victims ? Isn't that simply a racist comment ?

Simster · Apr 5, 2017

Live by the sea said:
Simster - I admit I don't know much about this situation but you do sound as if you dislike Jewish people. Is there a reason behind it ? I saw a BBC headline that said the deputy labour leader said that Livingston what he said shamed the Labour Party. But you appear to disagree. Is it because you think all Jewish people like to be portrayed as victims ? Isn't that simply a racist comment ?

What a strange conclusion to draw.

Chicken Run · Apr 5, 2017

Live by the sea said:
Simster - I admit I don't know much about this situation but you do sound as if you dislike Jewish people. Is there a reason behind it ? I saw a BBC headline that said the deputy labour leader said that Livingston what he said shamed the Labour Party. But you appear to disagree. Is it because you think all Jewish people like to be portrayed as victims ? Isn't that simply a racist comment ?

The only group of human beings that I can honestly say Simeon doesn't like are the fans of Portsmouth FC, I think your clutching at straws quite honestly!

cheshunt seagull · Apr 6, 2017

Simster said:
This. The Jewish community in this country have a real problem with anyone putting any sort of slant on them being anything other than victims, regardless of context. It started when that bellend Evening Standard journo kept badgering him unreasonably as mayor and he accused the journo of being like an SS guard at a concentration camp, for "just following orders". Unfortunately, the journo was Jewish unbeknown to Ken Livingston, and promptly sought to make political capital out of it.

How typical of the modern Labour party to suspend him for nothing other than saying a few home truths, obviously worried a few rich benefactors would pull funding. Absolutely shameful.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

You can't understand the psychology behind the current position of Israel or Europe and the US view of it without understanding the role the Holocaust played. However you can easily put together a criticism of Israel's recent policies towards exiled Palestinians, the Occupied Territories and Arabs within Israel without any mention of it; in fact it is better to do so. There is plenty of recent evidence and if you are looking for historic parallels Apartheid works better. This is not about Ken wishing to make a point about Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians; he is pressing a button to antagonise the UK Jewish population and probably sees it as quite a clever and intellectual way in doing it. Mind you in playing intellectual games he is very much in tune with the Labour leadership and the further they get from the danger of ever holding power the greater capacity for them to do so.

Simster · Apr 6, 2017

Chicken Run said:
The only group of human beings that I can honestly say Simeon doesn't like are the fans of Portsmouth FC, I think your clutching at straws quite honestly!

[emoji38]ol:

I've even come round to tolerating estate agents, all thanks to you. [emoji106]

Neville's Breakfast · Apr 6, 2017

Buzzer said:
I'd also draw your attention to this article for much better clarity.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/top-hi...ingstons-claim-that-hitler-supported-zionism/

Ken clearly has issues with the concept of a Jewish state and with Jews as a whole. Asked why he thought that British Jews have abandoned the Labour Party so dramatically in the last few years his reply that they have all become wealthy shows his mindset perfectly.

Jews. Money. Yep, that particular association isn't at all dodgy and certainly hasn't been the basis for harm against the Jewish community. Nice one, Ken.

Indeed and already on this thread there are sweeping statements being made about the Jewish community. It is the one group that people of a certain mindset seem happy to castigate as a community. Substitute 'black' or 'muslim' and these statements would not be spoken/written. These attitudes have been with us for a thousand years and are the reason Israel is needed as a safe haven for Jewish people. Ken Livingstone knows exactly what he is doing by taking history out of context to justify his contemporary view of Middle Eastern politics.

Wardy's twin · Apr 6, 2017

cheshunt seagull said:
You can't understand the psychology behind the current position of Israel or Europe and the US view of it without understanding the role the Holocaust played. However you can easily put together a criticism of Israel's recent policies towards exiled Palestinians, the Occupied Territories and Arabs within Israel without any mention of it; in fact it is better to do so. There is plenty of recent evidence and if you are looking for historic parallels Apartheid works better. This is not about Ken wishing to make a point about Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians; he is pressing a button to antagonise the UK Jewish population and probably sees it as quite a clever and intellectual way in doing it. Mind you in playing intellectual games he is very much in tune with the Labour leadership and the further they get from the danger of ever holding power the greater capacity for them to do so.

Agree with your comments but even these are a simplification which miss the complexity of the Israeli state which one label cannot fit. There is no single Israeli view on most matters and many inside the country control oppose the views of the extremists. What is clear and cannot be ignored is that the country was forged from violence either done to Israel or done by Israel and that violence is continuing from both sides. Until that violence or threat of it stops then Israeli policy will continue to work at the extremes.

Regards Ken Livingstone he really should have said nothing but unfortunately as a marginalised politician he feels he has to say something controversial to stay in the limelight, the fact that his comments reflect the view of the left wing of the labour party is sad.

Surf's Up · Apr 6, 2017

Simster said:
[emoji38]ol:

I've even come round to tolerating estate agents, all thanks to you. [emoji106]

Well if that's the case you've lost all touch with reality FFS!!!

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The Ken Livingstone saga

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