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The Holocaust and denial.



Leekbrookgull

Leekbrookgull

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2005
16,250
Leek
Really there is not much one can say about this "historic genocide mass murder" (we all know it happened) case/event call it what you want (?) so next point should and in several countries Holocaust Denial be an inprisonable offence ?
 




Buzzer

Buzzer

Languidly Clinical
Oct 1, 2006
26,121
Of course not. No-one should be locked up just for their beliefs no matter how odd or misguided. It's only when they act out on their beliefs that the authorities should get involved. Dr David Starkey hit the nail on the head when he talked about the humiliation and public disgrace of David Irving which only happened in the UK because we don't have specific holocaust denial laws.

And without wishing to offend anyone or belittle the unique horror of the Nazi holocaust, where do we draw the line? If it is made illegal to deny the Nazi holocaust, should it also be made illegal to deny the Armenian holocaust? And what about Stalin and Mao's atrocities? Seumas Milne is on record for down-playing the murders and persecution carried out by the Soviet regime. How is this different in substance to what David Irving did? The spectre of the BNP was hugely diminished when finally they were given proper public scrutiny and they were no longer allowed to play the victim card. That's the way that these cranks should be dealt with - get them out in the open and properly analysed and discredited rather than let the trolls fester in the shadows.
 


F

Fungus

Well-known member
NSC Patron
May 21, 2004
7,046
Truro
Buzzer said:
Of course not. No-one should be locked up just for their beliefs no matter how odd or misguided. It's only when they act out on their beliefs that the authorities should get involved. Dr David Starkey hit the nail on the head when he talked about the humiliation and public disgrace of David Irving which only happened in the UK because we don't have specific holocaust denial laws.

And without wishing to offend anyone or belittle the unique horror of the Nazi holocaust, where do we draw the line? If it is made illegal to deny the Nazi holocaust, should it also be made illegal to deny the Armenian holocaust? And what about Stalin and Mao's atrocities? Seumas Milne is on record for down-playing the murders and persecution carried out by the Soviet regime. How is this different in substance to what David Irving did? The spectre of the BNP was hugely diminished when finally they were given proper public scrutiny and they were no longer allowed to play the victim card. That's the way that these cranks should be dealt with - get them out in the open and properly analysed and discredited rather than let the trolls fester in the shadows.
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Not forgetting the Native American holocaust. And it looks like Trump won't improve matters for them.
 


S

seagully

Cock-knobs!
Jun 30, 2006
2,955
Battle
Buzzer said:
Of course not. No-one should be locked up just for their beliefs no matter how odd or misguided. It's only when they act out on their beliefs that the authorities should get involved. Dr David Starkey hit the nail on the head when he talked about the humiliation and public disgrace of David Irving which only happened in the UK because we don't have specific holocaust denial laws.

And without wishing to offend anyone or belittle the unique horror of the Nazi holocaust, where do we draw the line? If it is made illegal to deny the Nazi holocaust, should it also be made illegal to deny the Armenian holocaust? And what about Stalin and Mao's atrocities? Seumas Milne is on record for down-playing the murders and persecution carried out by the Soviet regime. How is this different in substance to what David Irving did? The spectre of the BNP was hugely diminished when finally they were given proper public scrutiny and they were no longer allowed to play the victim card. That's the way that these cranks should be dealt with - get them out in the open and properly analysed and discredited rather than let the trolls fester in the shadows.
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Spot on. Making it illegal to deny the Holocaust only fuels these nutjobs further anyway. "Why is it illegal to deny it? Must be because it's all a cover up" etc.
 






F

Fungus

Well-known member
NSC Patron
May 21, 2004
7,046
Truro
Triggaaar said:
For the uneducated (that's me), what happened?
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Seriously? There was pretty much official US government policy of genocide towards the indigenous "Indians", as the settlers swept west according to "manifest destiny". Ancestral lands were taken, natives were put on reservations without the means to live, etc, etc.
 


Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,171
Goldstone
Oxy McFloppie-Tish said:
Seriously? There was pretty much official US government policy of genocide towards the indigenous "Indians", as the settlers swept west according to "manifest destiny". Ancestral lands were taken, natives were put on reservations without the means to live, etc, etc.
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I don't think a holocaust is an accepted fact.
 


C

cheshunt seagull

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
2,496
Buzzer said:
Of course not. No-one should be locked up just for their beliefs no matter how odd or misguided. It's only when they act out on their beliefs that the authorities should get involved. Dr David Starkey hit the nail on the head when he talked about the humiliation and public disgrace of David Irving which only happened in the UK because we don't have specific holocaust denial laws.

And without wishing to offend anyone or belittle the unique horror of the Nazi holocaust, where do we draw the line? If it is made illegal to deny the Nazi holocaust, should it also be made illegal to deny the Armenian holocaust? And what about Stalin and Mao's atrocities? Seumas Milne is on record for down-playing the murders and persecution carried out by the Soviet regime. How is this different in substance to what David Irving did? The spectre of the BNP was hugely diminished when finally they were given proper public scrutiny and they were no longer allowed to play the victim card. That's the way that these cranks should be dealt with - get them out in the open and properly analysed and discredited rather than let the trolls fester in the shadows.
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Absolutely agree. Freedom of speech is probably the most important freedom of all because it allows us to properly scrutinise what is being said. The only exemption would be attempts to directly promote action against certain groups and individuals.
 




Tom Hark Preston Park

Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
70,161
Buzzer said:
Of course not. No-one should be locked up just for their beliefs no matter how odd or misguided. It's only when they act out on their beliefs that the authorities should get involved. Dr David Starkey hit the nail on the head when he talked about the humiliation and public disgrace of David Irving which only happened in the UK because we don't have specific holocaust denial laws.
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Quite. Let them get on with it and publicly humiliate themselves. The Holocaust Deniers just end up bracketed, quite correctly IMHO, with the David Ickes of this world i.e. as fantasist conspiracy nutters. Which is probably neither here nor there if you're a low IQ man-child virgin with a Nazi fetish living at home with mum in your thirties. Dead funny though if you claim to be a historian, like David Irving. Kiss of professional death. Ha. Ha.
 










SUIYHP

SUIYHP

The King's Gull
Apr 16, 2009
1,899
Inside Southwick Tunnel
I mostly agree with Buzzer, but I want to add that the Irving trial was a particularly unique case because he was the one who sued Lipstadt and Penguin books, and because it was under the UK court system, the defence had to construct an absolutely meticulous case that involved numerous legal experts and historians, and under the objective judgement of the court, they were able to absolutely tear apart Irving's prosecution. Even then he was very adamant about being the 'victim' though he possibly did it more for publicity. Such a situation is unlikely to happen again.
 






Cheshire Cat

Cheshire Cat

The most curious thing..
Nov 4, 2006
11,440
Sitting on a bough of a tree a few yards off...


Eeyore

Eeyore

Colonel Hee-Haw of Queen's Park
NSC Patron
Apr 5, 2014
23,535
It shouldn't be a criminal offence. Absolutely not.

But most 'deniers' can be called out as anti-Jew. It happened. Unless my uncle, who was part of the group that liberated Belsen, was a liar.

And he wasn't.
 








Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,171
Goldstone
half time scores said:
If you are interested in this period of American History, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee Brown is a good if disturbing read.
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Does his book state that it was a holocaust?
Oxy McFloppie-Tish said:
What is not accepted? The deaths? The intent? The word?
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The total number of deaths is not known (unsurprisingly). The cause of the deaths will vary, as will the intent. I don't think there is consensus on those things. I'm only interested in the truth, nothing else.
 


portlock seagull

portlock seagull

Why? Why us?
Jul 28, 2003
17,071
Holocaust means destruction or devastation on a mass scale, that's all. So you can label any number of events that if you want to, all subjective. It's simply become synonymous with the final solution for obvious reasons.

Most of the devastation of the American indians was caused by disease, I wouldn't agree it was therefore a holocaust in most people's interpretation though as said, you could argue that as an award winning author might! ;) And yes, I've read Dee Brown's book. But about 20 years ago, funnily enough I noticed last month it was still on a bookshelf at my parents house. Might read again one day.
 


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