The first penalty

BensGrandad · Dec 10, 2016

A point to consider I think is : In such a situation should the ref be permitted to give a goal and red card in the same way that rugby give a penalty try. My thinking is the player could have saved a definite goal and Green saved the kick thus the only advantage to the attacking side is the opponents down to 10 men. I realise it would need a rule change as a goal is only scored when the ball crosses the line.

Finchley Seagull · Dec 10, 2016

BensGrandad said:
A point to consider I think is : In such a situation should the ref be permitted to give a goal and red card in the same way that rugby give a penalty try. My thinking is the player could have saved a definite goal and Green saved the kick thus the only advantage to the attacking side is the opponents down to 10 men. I realise it would need a rule change as a goal is only scored when the ball crosses the line.

I have thought about that before but the main issue is there is no reason not to do it then. If the ball is going in anyway, you are not gambling anything by handling on the line. The referee might miss it and you get away with it. If they do see it, you don't lose anything as it would have been a goal anyway.

BensGrandad · Dec 10, 2016

Finchley Seagull said:
I have thought about that before but the main issue is there is no reason not to do it then. If the ball is going in anyway, you are not gambling anything by handling on the line. The referee might miss it and you get away with it. If they do see it, you don't lose anything as it would have been a goal anyway.

Is that not the case with any infringement in the penalty area? If the ref doesnt see it you get away with it.

Finchley Seagull · Dec 10, 2016

BensGrandad said:
Is that not the case with any infringement in the penalty area? If the ref doesnt see it you get away with it.

I think you are missing the point. At the moment, if the ball is going in and you handball it, you are sent off and it is a penalty. You gambled and lost. Under your scheme, you handball on the line when it goes in and you lose nothing. It is a goal anyway but there is also a chance the referee will miss it and you get away with it. The handball becomes a no brainer as you have nothing to lose.

Nixonator · Dec 10, 2016

Finchley Seagull said:
I think you are missing the point. At the moment, if the ball is going in and you handball it, you are sent off and it is a penalty. You gambled and lost. Under your scheme, you handball on the line when it goes in and you lose nothing. It is a goal anyway but there is also a chance the referee will miss it and you get away with it. The handball becomes a no brainer as you have nothing to lose.

I don't think he's suggesting that you shouldn't be sent off for it.

Scenario 1: Red card; Penalty awarded
Scenario 2: Red card; Goal awarded

Which rules out:

Scenario 3: Red card; Penalty saved ie. gamble half paid off

But neither rule out:

Scenario 4: Ref is playing angry birds ie. gamble paid off

Finchley Seagull · Dec 10, 2016

Nixonator said:
I don't think he's suggesting that you shouldn't be sent off for it.

Scenario 1: Red card; Penalty awarded
Scenario 2: Red card; Goal awarded

Which rules out:

Scenario 3: Red card; Penalty saved ie. gamble half paid off

But neither rule out:

Scenario 4: Ref is playing angry birds ie. gamble paid off

I assume he is. I don't think you can justify giving the goal if you send the player off anyway.

studio150 · Dec 10, 2016

Leave the current rules alone.

If there was a rule change, what happens when the ball looks like it is going towards the far corner but is curling towards goal the shot having started with the ball outside of the post, Defender dives and pushes the ball away from the goal.

One ref awards a penalty, the other awards the penalty goal. Queue massive protests for both cases either from the attacking or defending team depending on the ref.

Just stay with what we have which is well understood, and its not as if there is a goal line handball every game.

Diablo · Dec 10, 2016

A red cards effect hugely variable....one in first minute will almost certainly affect result whereas one in last minute is unlikely to do so....making the punishment for early red card harsher than later one.

Not fair but how can it change to make Red card punishment the same

BensGrandad · Dec 10, 2016

Nixonator said:
I don't think he's suggesting that you shouldn't be sent off for it.

Scenario 1: Red card; Penalty awarded
Scenario 2: Red card; Goal awarded

Which rules out:

Scenario 3: Red card; Penalty saved ie. gamble half paid off

But neither rule out:

Scenario 4: Ref is playing angry birds ie. gamble paid off

I am saying the ref should invoke scenario 2.

Rod Marsh · Dec 10, 2016

BensGrandad said:
I am saying the ref should invoke scenario 2.

I agree, this is something that should be looked at. Imagine if this was the 89th minute. The red card is almost meaningless with the potential of the penalty being missed or saved.

Driver8 · Dec 10, 2016

I said the same thing at the match. Deliberate handball where the ball is clearly going in should be a goal. Could even do away with a red card in that scenario as no advantage to defending side.

Yoda · Dec 10, 2016

studio150 said:
Leave the current rules alone.

If there was a rule change, what happens when the ball looks like it is going towards the far corner but is curling towards goal the shot having started with the ball outside of the post, Defender dives and pushes the ball away from the goal.

One ref awards a penalty, the other awards the penalty goal. Queue massive protests for both cases either from the attacking or defending team depending on the ref.

Just stay with what we have which is well understood, and its not as if there is a goal line handball every game.

I think BG is on about blocking the ball from crossing the line, ON the line, and does have a very valid point. eg: Suarez vs Ghana in the World Cup

Stat Brother · Dec 10, 2016

At some point football will change to a 'penalty goal' for this situation.
I wouldn't be at all surprised of the offending player doesn't even get a card, or perhaps just gets a yellow.

FatSuperman · Dec 10, 2016

Stat Brother said:
At some point football will change to a 'penalty goal' for this situation.
I wouldn't be at all surprised of the offending player doesn't even get a card, or perhaps just gets a yellow.

That brings back the previous comment that there is no real deterrent if you enact that rule. If the keeper isn't getting it then you may as well handle it, chance the ref misses it and you save the day. Or if you get caught, no big deal, it was going to be a goal anyway.

BensGrandad · Dec 10, 2016

FatSuperman said:
That brings back the previous comment that there is no real deterrent if you enact that rule. If the keeper isn't getting it then you may as well handle it, chance the ref misses it and you save the day. Or if you get caught, no big deal, it was going to be a goal anyway.

That is a pointless argument because players dont have tine to think Oh if I stop this it will be a red card it is a natural action to try to stop the ball irrespective of the outcome. They score a goal and still take their shirt off knowing it means a yellow card,.

sebtucknott · Dec 10, 2016

Rod Marsh said:
I agree, this is something that should be looked at. Imagine if this was the 89th minute. The red card is almost meaningless with the potential of the penalty being missed or saved.

A la Suarez in the World Cup 2010 vs Ghana

Eagle Slayer · Dec 10, 2016

Perhaps they should make it "rush goalies " like at school or down the park lol

Mellotron · Dec 10, 2016

As others have said, when Suarez did it the penalty was saved and Uruguay went through - so his handball was the RIGHT thing to do for his side and they were effectively rewarded by a further chance to stop what was a definite goal.

FatSuperman · Dec 10, 2016

BensGrandad said:
That is a pointless argument because players dont have tine to think Oh if I stop this it will be a red card it is a natural action to try to stop the ball irrespective of the outcome. They score a goal and still take their shirt off knowing it means a yellow card,.

This though will change it from an instinctive thing, to a genuine tactic. Everyone and their dog will be trying to bat the ball away!

The Camel · Dec 10, 2016

Mellotron said:
As others have said, when Suarez did it the penalty was saved and Uruguay went through - so his handball was the RIGHT thing to do for his side and they were effectively rewarded by a further chance to stop what was a definite goal.

Ever since that Suarez handball, I've thought a goal should be awarded in a situation like that.

Suarez cheated and his team benefited from it. How can that be fair?

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