[Politics] Brexit

Baldseagull · Jun 18, 2019

Sussex Nomad said:
So basically, we are paying 250 mill and the EU is telling us what we spend when it comes back, so it may as well be 250 mill. By the way, where do you get the 250 from, please link it.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

It’s been claimed that we send £350 million a week to the EU. That misses out the rebate, and it doesn’t represent the total economic costs and benefits of EU membership to the UK.
£350 million is roughly what we would pay to the EU budget without the rebate. The UK actually paid closer to £250 million a week.
The UK Statistics Authority has said the EU membership fee figure of £19 billion a year, or £350 million a week, is "not an amount of money that the UK pays to the EU each year".
Since then, the new chair of the Authority described use of the figure by the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, as “a clear misuse of official statistics”.

The government then gets some of that money back, mainly through payments to farmers and for poorer areas of the country such as Wales and Cornwall.
In 2017, the UK's ‘public sector receipts’ are estimated to be £4 billion.
So overall we paid in £8.9 billion more than we got back.
The Treasury figures note payments the EU makes directly to the private sector, such as research grants. In 2015, these were worth an estimated £1.5 billion, so including them could reduce our net contribution further still.

Sussex Nomad · Jun 18, 2019

Anyway [MENTION=23343]Baldseagull[/MENTION] thanks for a debate without the need to name call and get all tribalist, have a good day.

Baldseagull · Jun 18, 2019

Sussex Nomad said:
OK caught this before bed. Firstly, we are the second biggest market to Germany after the US. Do you really believe they will want border tariffs with their VWs and Mercs? It just will not happen. When we stop buying German cars their economy will take a huge hit, it will not happen. Economy drives nations, they won't take that hit. We are, for many countries a massive source of income. I agree the Irish border is a sticking point, but only because the EU will not play ball. If Irish problems started again it will be purely down to the EU. The countries that want to leave the union sadly can't. They are totally in debt to the EU, something the EU probably wanted in order to keep control. There is no democracy in Brussels, none whatsoever. I think the informed British public did exactly the right thing by getting away from that totalitarian rule. They may be able to hold small poor countries to ransom, they can't hold us to it.

No, Germany will not want tariffs, we don't want tariffs either, but if we do not do a deal we will get them. You say the economy drives nations, but a hard brexit will stuff our economy, and anything but a hard Brexit is called a betrayal by Rees-Mogg and Farage and co. Language like totalitarian rule, blackmail, and ransom is unwarranted, the EU is not perfect, but it is not as you describe it.

Sussex Nomad · Jun 18, 2019

Baldseagull said:
No, Germany will not want tariffs, we don't want tariffs either, but if we do not do a deal we will get them. You say the economy drives nations, but a hard brexit will stuff our economy, and anything but a hard Brexit is called a betrayal by Rees-Mogg and Farage and co. Language like totalitarian rule, blackmail, and ransom is unwarranted, the EU is not perfect, but it is not as you describe it.

Last word, I don't really go with politicians on either side, so names mean little to me. I do think the EU rule is totalitarian and they give me no reason to believe otherwise. They are trying hard to blackmail us, hold us to ransom and I am happy that we stand up for ourselves. When I see/hear Junker and Barnier, unelected civil servants, telling us how to run our country I want to throttle them. We are infamously known as the bad cousin in Europe and I'm happy to be that. They need us, we need them, but I prefer it on our terms, from our elected politicians, not the bile spilling hatred of the UK from Europeans. They will try and they will fail, that is just the way we are as a country. We don't take shit.

wellquickwoody · Jun 18, 2019

Sussex Nomad said:
Last word, I don't really go with politicians on either side, so names mean little to me. I do think the EU rule is totalitarian and they give me no reason to believe otherwise. They are trying hard to blackmail us, hold us to ransom and I am happy that we stand up for ourselves. When I see/hear Junker and Barnier, unelected civil servants, telling us how to run our country I want to throttle them. We are infamously known as the bad cousin in Europe and I'm happy to be that. They need us, we need them, but I prefer it on our terms, from our elected politicians, not the bile spilling hatred of the UK from Europeans. They will try and they will fail, that is just the way we are as a country. We don't take shit.

No doubt you will be campaigning for the return of street parties too.

Juan Albion · Jun 18, 2019

wellquickwoody said:
No doubt you will be campaigning for the return of street parties too.

And Spangles.

Klaas · Jun 18, 2019

Sussex Nomad said:
Are we not the banking business centre of the world? There is quite a slush fund in that economy straight away. I don't really care much about our past in so much as I am not an appeaser for what we did. We will find our place in the world, which still has huge stock. We have been sliding down the scale for decades, but our stock as a nation is still high. We are still highly regarded. We, before the US joined, single handedly kept Hitler at bay, we stopped him taking over the western world, yet Europe treats us like something they wiped off their shoe. Back in the day when we wanted to join the Common Market, one voice kept us out, Charles de Gaulle. The same person that claimed victory in WW2. Yes, irony, I know. But from that time onwards it was clear that Europe wanted nothing to do with us. We voted in to a common market and we have voted out of a federal Europe. This was not envisaged in the 70s. I know, without doubt, we will suffer hardship outside the EU for the foreseeable future, but that just will not last. We have always been a stronger state without influence from outside our borders. The EU is trying to blackmail us, the unelected civil servants are trying to tell us how to run our country. The EU will not survive in its current form without reforms or our money. If anyone is chewing off their nose to spite their face, it is the EU, not us. They need us, they know it and yet they try to blackmail us, it really is a lose, lose situation for them.

It's not surprising the view many remainers have of leavers when this pompus, arrogant, exceptionalism is trotted out time and time again. Regale us please with how you played your part in defeating Hitler 74 years ago, must be some story.

Sussex Nomad said:
If Irish problems started again it will be purely down to the EU.

This is going to be the Brexiters' answer to everything. Sheer arrogance and a complete lack of responsibility.

Bakero · Jun 18, 2019

Sussex Nomad said:
Last word, I don't really go with politicians on either side, so names mean little to me. I do think the EU rule is totalitarian and they give me no reason to believe otherwise. They are trying hard to blackmail us, hold us to ransom and I am happy that we stand up for ourselves. When I see/hear Junker and Barnier, unelected civil servants, telling us how to run our country I want to throttle them. We are infamously known as the bad cousin in Europe and I'm happy to be that. They need us, we need them, but I prefer it on our terms, from our elected politicians, not the bile spilling hatred of the UK from Europeans. They will try and they will fail, that is just the way we are as a country. We don't take shit.

You don't know what totalitarianism is.

Berty23 · Jun 18, 2019

Sussex Nomad said:
Last word, I don't really go with politicians on either side, so names mean little to me. I do think the EU rule is totalitarian and they give me no reason to believe otherwise. They are trying hard to blackmail us, hold us to ransom and I am happy that we stand up for ourselves. When I see/hear Junker and Barnier, unelected civil servants, telling us how to run our country I want to throttle them. We are infamously known as the bad cousin in Europe and I'm happy to be that. They need us, we need them, but I prefer it on our terms, from our elected politicians, not the bile spilling hatred of the UK from Europeans. They will try and they will fail, that is just the way we are as a country. We don't take shit.

Serious question. What bile have they sent our way? We could play a game where someone lists the bad things they have said against us and someone else lists things we have said about them.

Of all EU members we had the best deal but still wanted more. Personally I think they have been very restrained.

The Clamp · Jun 18, 2019

Klaas said:
It's not surprising the view many remainers have of leavers when this pompus, arrogant, exceptionalism is trotted out time and time again. Regale us please with how you played your part in defeating Hitler 74 years ago, must be some story.

This is going to be the Brexiters' answer to everything. Sheer arrogance and a complete lack of responsibility.

This. Sussex Nomad is a bit unhinged I think.

Worried Man Blues · Jun 18, 2019

Bonjour Waterloo Day

CHAPPERS · Jun 18, 2019

I find it incredible that people go on about us giving money TO the EU, as if we aren't an active player within it. It's been excellently spun.

The Clamp · Jun 18, 2019

CHAPPERS said:
I find it incredible that people go on about us giving money TO the EU, as if we aren't an active player within it. It's been excellently spun.

Correct. They have gone for the most base fears.
They are taking your money.
They are letting foreigners in.
They are taking from you and giving to foreigners.
They want to control you.

Only an idiot would fall for that thought control. And 17.4 million idiots did.

Bakero · Jun 18, 2019

The Clamp said:
Correct. They have gone for the most base fears.
They are taking your money.
They are letting foreigners in.
They are taking from you and giving to foreigners.
They want to control you.

Only an idiot would fall for that thought control. And 17.4 million idiots did.

So basic, so effective.

Mtoto · Jun 18, 2019

Sussex Nomad said:
Last word, I don't really go with politicians on either side, so names mean little to me. I do think the EU rule is totalitarian and they give me no reason to believe otherwise. They are trying hard to blackmail us, hold us to ransom and I am happy that we stand up for ourselves. When I see/hear Junker and Barnier, unelected civil servants, telling us how to run our country I want to throttle them. We are infamously known as the bad cousin in Europe and I'm happy to be that. They need us, we need them, but I prefer it on our terms, from our elected politicians, not the bile spilling hatred of the UK from Europeans. They will try and they will fail, that is just the way we are as a country. We don't take shit.

The inherent contradictions here are remarkable. You revel in being the unco-operative "cousin" in a 28-country organisation that is founded on the principle of co-operation. They didn't vote to kick us out of the biggest free-trade bloc on the planet - we voted to leave, and if/when we leave, the single market will be at least 7 times bigger than our own economy, and perhaps 8 times bigger or more if we decide to jump off the cliff. And yet you expect our negotiated future relationship with the EU/single market to be on "our" terms, when it will be negotiated from a position of urgent need on our part (soft brexit) or utter desperation (hard brexit).

Stat Brother · Jun 18, 2019

Baldseagull · Jun 18, 2019

Sussex Nomad said:
Last word, I don't really go with politicians on either side, so names mean little to me. I do think the EU rule is totalitarian and they give me no reason to believe otherwise. They are trying hard to blackmail us, hold us to ransom and I am happy that we stand up for ourselves. When I see/hear Junker and Barnier, unelected civil servants, telling us how to run our country I want to throttle them. We are infamously known as the bad cousin in Europe and I'm happy to be that. They need us, we need them, but I prefer it on our terms, from our elected politicians, not the bile spilling hatred of the UK from Europeans. They will try and they will fail, that is just the way we are as a country. We don't take shit.

Totalitarianism is a system of governance that is dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state, blackmail is an attempt to extort funds from someone on the threat of revealing some compromising information. Ransom is a fee demanded for the return of something, or more usually someone, that belongs to the other.

I gave you a link to show I was not making up the £250 million figure, please could you show me the same courtesy, and link to examples of totalitarianism, blackmail and ransom, or accept that the use of those words in describing the EU is more than a little OTT?

nicko31 · Jun 18, 2019

Stat Brother said:
View attachment 111691

Jesus wept...

English exceptionalism really is at the heart of the Tory Brexit.

But a majority to destroy their own party too? If there was any doubt this is anything other than a cult. Well there you have it....

Trufflehound · Jun 18, 2019

Stat Brother said:
View attachment 111691

Quite happy to destroy their own country for their own personal gain, and yet somehow Remainers are the "traitors"...

Garry Nelson's teacher · Jun 18, 2019

Trufflehound said:
Quite happy to destroy their own country for their own personal gain, and yet somehow Remainers are the "traitors"...

Am increasingly of the view that a large proportion of my fellow citizens have taken Leave of their senses. This is a Brexfetish.

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