[Politics] Brexit

nicko31 · Apr 3, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
Funny that having got their mates in the media to discredit the Lib Dems the Tories then win a majority on the back of lost Lib Dem seats. Hatchet job done, full steam ahead on Brexit Referendum, the rest is history.

Like them or loathe them, British politics seems far healthier when there's a coherent centre ground voice, which is why the Change UK party will attract significant support.

The coalition with Clegg / Cameron worked well, the Lib Dems moderated the Tories and made a difference. Both sides didn't get everything they wanted, but there was compromise and it represented sensible politics and steered us through troubled waters

Give the Tories a majority (just 2 years since 1997) and look where we've ended up, literally a banana republic now. Brexit has consumed everything for 3 years and now the gene is out of the bottle will continue to do so for the foreseeable future

I welcome the new party and if I wasn't in Lib Dem seat I'd probably vote for them. What really needs to change is the voting system, its no longer fit for the modern era.

Mental Lental · Apr 3, 2019

beorhthelm said:
email verification can be automated, postcodes just another piece of data in a list. theres web pages for creating fake addresses. im not sure i believe claims but its possible someone inclined could do this.

If it's that easy I wonder why the No Deal Brexit petitions only have a fraction of the numbers? Considering it's just as easy for Leave to use bots as well.

nicko31 · Apr 3, 2019

Corbyn needs to demand a longer extension, a short extension is a dangerous trap. May has run down the clock and wasted pretty much all of our 2 years

Its no good trying to go cross party at 5 minutes to midnight and try and force things through, need to build a consensus of what Brexit can get parliaments support and ask the public to sign it off.

beorhthelm · Apr 3, 2019

Mental Lental said:
If it's that easy I wonder why the No Deal Brexit petitions only have a fraction of the numbers? Considering it's just as easy for Leave to use bots as well.

all too old to code?

Mo Gosfield · Apr 3, 2019

nicko31 said:
What we do know is for every 10 people that signed the petition to revoke Article 50 there is only 1 that wants to crash out of the EU with no deal.

The facts hurt, Britain doesn't want a hard Brexit and a majority would now be content to call the whole thing off

Oh....I did misunderstand the result in 2016. I didn't realise that 17.4m people voted to remain a part of the EU. I also have failed to note the dramatic reform programme and changes being undertaken by the EU, which might persuade some who voted to Leave to re-think their reasons for voting that way.
I thought all the evidence nationally was that a majority wanted Brexit as soon as possible and a majority still wanted to leave without a New European Treaty. Obviously got that wrong as well. Thank you for putting me straight.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Apr 3, 2019

Around this time yesterday I confidently predicted that at a time when May should be reaching out, she would instead retreat into a bunker. How good to be so wrong. On one level, her initiative to embrace Labour is pragmatic, statesmanlike and puts the national interest above party interest. But on another level anything that upsets the ERG gets my support. Now we await the tsunami of bile that will head her way from those who have rebranded 'Brexit' to 'no-deal Brexit' and successful mobilised huge amounts of latent Leaver nastiness in their cause.

Hampster Gull · Apr 3, 2019

May and the Tories doing a great job for the country.....the worst PM and government, ever. Now o e of two things, rescued by Marxist Corbyn or negotiating in bad faith with them to blame them for a hard Brexit.

n1 gull · Apr 3, 2019

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Around this time yesterday I confidently predicted that at a time when May should be reaching out, she would instead retreat into a bunker. How good to be so wrong. On one level, her initiative to embrace Labour is pragmatic, statesmanlike and puts the national interest above party interest. But on another level anything that upsets the ERG gets my support. Now we await the tsunami of bile that will head her way from those who have rebranded 'Brexit' to 'no-deal Brexit' and successful mobilised huge amounts of latent Leaver nastiness in their cause.

Totally correct. The ERG have been the tail wagging the dog and they totally got carried away with their power grab. Baker and his cronies can feck off. They got it wrong and now is the time for compromise and unity

Mo Gosfield · Apr 3, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
Funny that having got their mates in the media to discredit the Lib Dems the Tories then win a majority on the back of lost Lib Dem seats. Hatchet job done, full steam ahead on Brexit Referendum, the rest is history.

Like them or loathe them, British politics seems far healthier when there's a coherent centre ground voice, which is why the Change UK party will attract significant support.

Totally disagree.
They won't even get their seats back. A rag-bag assortment of comedic, self-centred, attention seeking, low-lights, such as Soubry and Umunna. They have had their 15 minutes in the spotlight. Darkness beckons.

Steve.S · Apr 3, 2019

She has played a blinder, the talks with Labour have already pulled her party back in line. They are all wanting her to bring her deal back. She will wait 24/48 hours, claim that it’s not going well with Labour and bring her deal back for a 4th time and it will go through. They spent hours yesterday locked away and this is what they have come up with. The other thing they could be doing is getting Labour to set out what their plan is as they have been sitting on the fence with this. Once the plan is out and it will be a customs union and freedom of movement. She will then call a general election and she will bang on to the Labour strongholds in the North that Labour will not give them what they want. I think she has got Labour where they didn’t want to be. If she had just called a general election yesterday Labour would have made it about austerity. Now if she calls it, Labours Brexit plans will be for all to see. Anyone who genuinely wants to leave will not vote for Labours vision.

WATFORD zero · Apr 3, 2019

WATFORD zero said:
When we didn't start building Border posts, lorry parks at the ports, initiate the development of the IT systems and infrastructure and submit our WTO schedules within the first couple of months, it was obvious 'no deal' was a non-starter.

pastafarian said:
Please stop your WTO related nonsense now, its getting ridiculous
We did not submit our WTO schedule within the first couple of months because it was not possible to submit our WTO schedule within the first couple of months, nothing to do with no deal being a non starter.
A schedule has to include our submissions on Tariff Rate Quotas, before we could do that we had to negotiate with the EU, separately from withdrawal talks, a methodology for dividing up the existing tariff rate quotas between UK and the EU, when this is completed you need a Council and Commission decision to acknowledge the quotas methodology has been agreed and a subsequent ruling therefore to allow an existing member to be able to submit its own WTO schedule because it is departing the Union, this was done in june 2018, we submitted our draft schedule to the WTO shortly after that in july 2018.

So because you disagree on the WTO point, you believe we could ignore all the other reasons we weren't preparing for 'no deal' and just push ahead regardless

Oh, and Incidentally

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-a-balanced-and-progressive-trade-policy-to-harness-globalisation/file-brexit-tariff-rate-quotas-in-the-wto

Relevant bits

An EU-UK agreement on splitting the quotas was reached and submitted to the WTO partners in October 2017. The Council agreed on the proposal on 29 October 2018 (after we had submitted our schedules).

But apparently this decision that was taken after we submitted the schedule was what was holding up our submission

Bold Seagull · Apr 3, 2019

Steve.S said:
The other thing they could be doing is getting Labour to set out what their plan is as they have been sitting on the fence with this. Once the plan is out and it will be a customs union and freedom of movement.

The secret plan that was set out clearly in Labour’s 2017 manifesto that got their biggest ever vote share swing?

Page 23. Hardly a cat out of the bag is it when it’s spelled out in black and white.

http://https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf

Mo Gosfield · Apr 3, 2019

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Around this time yesterday I confidently predicted that at a time when May should be reaching out, she would instead retreat into a bunker. How good to be so wrong. On one level, her initiative to embrace Labour is pragmatic, statesmanlike and puts the national interest above party interest. But on another level anything that upsets the ERG gets my support. Now we await the tsunami of bile that will head her way from those who have rebranded 'Brexit' to 'no-deal Brexit' and successful mobilised huge amounts of latent Leaver nastiness in their cause.

At the moment, the two major parties are flaking at the edges. This will guarantee that It won't be long before large chunks are falling off both of them. A PM allowing a leader of the opposition to call the shots is political suicide. Still, she is going anyway, so she is only concerned with her own legacy.

WATFORD zero · Apr 3, 2019

peterward said:
I have a very good grasp of the functioning of the EU and all the various options being touted as Brexit options. I personally voted for a WTO (which would quite quickly turn into a trade agreement with the EU).

So you believe that putting a border in Ireland/NI completely destroying the Good Friday Agreement

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-ireland-border/ireland-under-pressure-over-border-plans-for-no-deal-brexit-idUKKCN1Q31VM

Risking the delivery of medical supplies

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-medicine-shortage-nhs-supply-stockpile-germany-a8845646.html

And making 87% of all imports tariff free to the whole world under WTO Most-favoured-nation rules, risking all UK producers in any of those markets

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45112872

is the way to strengthen our negotiating position. And then we can 'quite quickly turn into a trade agreement with the EU'. I think we may have to agree to disagree on that one.

Maybe it's just as well it isn't going to happen ?

WATFORD zero · Apr 3, 2019

dwayne said:
Good post.

I'm a remainer but I must admit I'm getting bored of Watford zero's tedious, patronising ramblings on this thread. He is the type that has given remainer's a bad name.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

I am sorry dwayne. I knew you hadn't really forgiven me for the Excel monkey line. When was that, 15 years ago ? :kiss:

Lever · Apr 3, 2019

pastafarian said:
I have posted it a number of times, if you want a new referendum following on from the democratic decision to leave,asking how we should leave then ask the binary leaving question.

A/ Leave the EU with the withdrawal agreement
or
B/Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement

Remainers get to vote as well obviously......Remainers dont want this question asked though.

or
C As we now know that the original referendum was seriously flawed and what some of the implications of A and B are - are you still content with any withdrawal?

Fungus · Apr 3, 2019

peterward said:
6 million email addresses, not 6 million people.... one fella admitted he'd used a program to sign it 15k times, which is what happened with the first second referendum petition, lots of bots.

Im actually glad for change UK, it will split the labour vote more

Probably not bots - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-47668946

darkwolf666 · Apr 3, 2019

Steve.S said:
She has played a blinder, the talks with Labour have already pulled her party back in line. They are all wanting her to bring her deal back. She will wait 24/48 hours, claim that it’s not going well with Labour and bring her deal back for a 4th time and it will go through. They spent hours yesterday locked away and this is what they have come up with. The other thing they could be doing is getting Labour to set out what their plan is as they have been sitting on the fence with this. Once the plan is out and it will be a customs union and freedom of movement. She will then call a general election and she will bang on to the Labour strongholds in the North that Labour will not give them what they want. I think she has got Labour where they didn’t want to be. If she had just called a general election yesterday Labour would have made it about austerity. Now if she calls it, Labours Brexit plans will be for all to see. Anyone who genuinely wants to leave will not vote for Labours vision.

So someone who genuinely wants to leave would vote for this shower of shite instead

Can’t see it myself.

I think at the next election we are heading one of two directions, total apathy as people no longer trust politicians, or an upsurge of extremists groups.... we are heading for dark times!

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 3, 2019

Baldseagull said:
You have that back to front, the leave position is more like having the radio on, more of you voted for the radio on than off, so it is on, now we are arguing about which station we should be tuned to, and it now looks like, that given the range of stations we can actually receive, most people would rather just turn it off now, but you are insisting it must be on, even if most people now want it off.

Brilliant analogy. Yes, that is EXACTLY what people are like. :lolol:

The radio is ALWAYS off in my workspace.

To me 'let's have a referendum' is on a par with 'let's have an open relationship'.

Blue Valkyrie · Apr 3, 2019

KingKev said:
And as such you could make an argument that it was Clegg and co’s misstep on tuition fees which was the defining act which put us on the road to the referendum and then to where we are today...oh the irony.

It was Ed Miliband eating a bacon sandwich which caused all this mess.

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