[Politics] Brexit

Baldseagull · Apr 14, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
Why do you presume I haven't wanted English independence a long time, it's pretty annoying. I am not an ardent advocate of it though, I just believe it would be good for the constituent countries, especially England and Scotland.

And you are really trying to argue that London, the capital of England, has as much right to independence as Scotland? Wow.

Of course I am not, I just can't believe you think it's ok to chop bits of the UK off, for whatever reason, against the will of the people residing in those parts. I thought the reasoning was that you felt as these parts had wanted to remain in the EU, they should be cut off from the UK and allowed to be in the EU, I had not realised that it was just because you think it would be good for them.

Green Cross Code Man · Apr 14, 2019

Baldseagull said:
Of course I am not, I just can't believe you think it's ok to chop bits of the UK off, for whatever reason, against the will of the people residing in those parts. I thought the reasoning was that you felt as these parts had wanted to remain in the EU, they should be cut off from the UK and allowed to be in the EU, I had not realised that it was just because you think it would be good for them.

Okay, fair enough. I take it you don't support the right for Scotland to become independent?

Garry Nelson's teacher · Apr 14, 2019

I was rather hoping that this thread would follow the example of our MPs and have a bit of a Recess. (Sorry, I mean go 'back to our constituencies.'..…………..)

WATFORD zero · Apr 14, 2019

albion68 said:
IMO we will end up compromising by going for Customs Union which does not effect freedom of movement correct me if i am wrong.

I'm not sure I understand any aspect of your post, but I'll try

Going for Customs Union is a compromise compared to what ? A hard border ?
The Customs Union covers goods, not people.
The Single Market is what encompasses the free movement of goods, services, capital and people.
It's the Schengen Area that have officially abolished passport and all other types of border control for people. Britain isn't part of this.

Maybe the answer to what you are asking is somewhere in the explanations above ?

Grombleton · Apr 14, 2019

albion68 said:
If the EU had not been so good in the negotiations fighting their corner in the "Divorce" from the UK and TM had come back with a deal that majority MP`s would vote through we would have left by now .They would not have known the deal would not get through so they inadvertently are part of the problem .But the EU now sees the situation as an opportunity for the UK to stay in the EU ,going by comments from Tusk talking about 1 million remainers march etc.

...but it isn't the EU's fault for being good at negotiating. It's ours for being so utterly useless at it, which has meant we are in this situation (amongst other factors).

You wouldn't send shit negotiators in to sort things out, you'd send your best negotiators. Unless you're the UK, we did the former it seems.

albion68 · Apr 14, 2019

WATFORD zero said:
I'm not sure I understand any aspect of your post, but I'll try

Going for Customs Union is a compromise compared to what ? A hard border ?
The Customs Union covers goods, not people.
The Single Market is what encompasses the free movement of goods, services, capital and people.
It's the Schengen Area that have officially abolished passport and all other types of border control for people. Britain isn't part of this.

Maybe the answer to what you are asking is somewhere in the explanations above ?

Customs Union rather then hard border as in NI issue which you have been asking leavers to make a choice between the two .There will have to be a compromise somewhere ,very difficult to predict what will be the end game at the moment ,but that is why we have Politicians to sort it out and enact on the referendum unless you think we should have a second referendum.?

WATFORD zero · Apr 14, 2019

albion68 said:
Customs Union rather then hard border as in NI issue which you have been asking leavers to make a choice between the two .There will have to be a compromise somewhere ,very difficult to predict what will be the end game at the moment ,but that is why we have Politicians to sort it out and enact on the referendum unless you think we should have a second referendum.?

I agree that if we are going to leave at all it will be a Customs Union. It's just that I am being told constantly that a Customs Union isn't what was voted for ?

Personally I think we should revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU and that is why I voted remain. I have always thought that the two options for us leaving, Customs Union or Hard Border were both complete shit and consequently couldn't understand why anyone who had thought this through, would vote leave. However, what you or me 'think should happen' has no bearing on any of this :shrug:

What really matters is that with the country split between Leave and Remain, and the Leavers split between Customs Union, Hard Border and Don't Know/Care/Understand, whatever decision the politicians make will alienate a fair proportion of 'their' electorate and they will be also be held responsible for any economic fallout. That is the real reason none of them will take responsibility for any decision.

Now I wonder if the politicians can find a way out of this predicament without them having to make a decision that alienates a large proportion of their voters

Stat Brother · Apr 14, 2019

Did this get picked up on:-

Brexit: British Steel seeks £100m government loan to meet EU rules

British Steel is seeking a £100m loan from the government in order to meet EU emission rules.

Previously, the company could have used EU-issued carbon credits to settle its 2018 pollution bill.

However, the steel maker has been affected by a European Union decision to suspend UK firms' access to free carbon permits until a Brexit withdrawal deal is ratified.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47921375

Baldseagull · Apr 14, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
Okay, fair enough. I take it you don't support the right for Scotland to become independent?

Their, and Northern Irelands right to choose is different to being cast out, as you were suggesting.

JC Footy Genius · Apr 14, 2019

Move over Mark Francois we have a new winner for the most inflammatory, stupid statements made by an MP ... :facepalm:

A second referendum campaign would be such fun .... :shootself

Green Cross Code Man · Apr 14, 2019

Baldseagull said:
Their, and Northern Irelands right to choose is different to being cast out, as you were suggesting.

So you think that the Irish in the UK and the Scots and presumably the Welsh, have a right to self determination.

Why are the English not afforded that right? If we were talking about gender equality or LGBT rights, I wonder if you would feel the same.

Baldseagull · Apr 14, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
So you think that the Irish in the UK and the Scots and presumably the Welsh, have a right to self determination.

Why are the English not afforded that right? If we were talking about gender equality or LGBT rights, I wonder if you would feel the same.

If we were talking about gender equality or rights of people with different sexuality, English self determination would rank alongside equal opportunities for men and the rights of Heterosexuals.

albion68 · Apr 14, 2019

Grombleton said:
...but it isn't the EU's fault for being good at negotiating. It's ours for being so utterly useless at it, which has meant we are in this situation (amongst other factors).

You wouldn't send shit negotiators in to sort things out, you'd send your best negotiators. Unless you're the UK, we did the former it seems.

I not saying it is the fault of the EU for being good at negotiating its the consequence of their stance ,they won`t give an inch .The EU is not structured as a democracy in which power is devolved .Rather mostly as a system of rules ,policies and laws that are incredibly difficult to change or break.

WATFORD zero · Apr 14, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
So you think that the Irish in the UK and the Scots and presumably the Welsh, have a right to self determination.

Why are the English not afforded that right? If we were talking about gender equality or LGBT rights, I wonder if you would feel the same.

There are a few posts on this thread that should see it promoted to NSC Gold, and that's right up there :thumbsup:

Grombleton · Apr 14, 2019

albion68 said:
I not saying it is the fault of the EU for being good at negotiating its the consequence of their stance ,they won`t give an inch .The EU is not structured as a democracy in which power is devolved .Rather mostly as a system of rules ,policies and laws that are incredibly difficult to change or break.

I'd fully expect that though. Hypothetically, If you were to divorce your partner would you expect them to roll over and give in to all your demands? No, they'd be within their rights to stick to what they're entitled to - we are just gutless and useless....we can't even agree to it in our own government for crying out loud :lolol:

Green Cross Code Man · Apr 14, 2019

Baldseagull said:
If we were talking about gender equality or rights of people with different sexuality, English self determination would rank alongside equal opportunities for men and the rights of Heterosexuals.

Oh, interesting. Then you don't believe in equal rights for those groups either?

ManOfSussex · Apr 14, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
So you think that the Irish in the UK and the Scots and presumably the Welsh, have a right to self determination.

Why are the English not afforded that right? If we were talking about gender equality or LGBT rights, I wonder if you would feel the same.

Who are you going to vote for to make your English independence pipe dream come true though?

Green Cross Code Man · Apr 14, 2019

ManOfSussex said:
Who are you going to vote for to make your English independence pipe dream come true though?

I don't know and don't particularly care at the moment. I would like it to happen but I am more than happy with the UK. I certainly wouldn't vote for someone like the BNP.

albion68 · Apr 14, 2019

Grombleton said:
I'd fully expect that though. Hypothetically, If you were to divorce your partner would you expect them to roll over and give in to all your demands? No, they'd be within their rights to stick to what they're entitled to - we are just gutless and useless....we can't even agree to it in our own government for crying out loud

The UK is up against a brick wall and we are just flailing around IMO . The danger is people will start voting for more right wing parties and we have already got a Labour party that is more left wing then the old Labour ,the centre ground will be weakened quite a lot.

ManOfSussex · Apr 14, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
I don't know and don't particularly care at the moment. I would like it to happen but I am more than happy with the UK. I certainly wouldn't vote for someone like the BNP.

Quite right too. The BNP may be many things, but being a British nationalist party leads me to hazard a guess they're probably not too keen on breaking up the union.

A Google search reveals there was actually a petition from 2016 after the Brexit vote calling for English independence, but it only got about 2500 signatures.

There does appear to be a political party dedicated to the cause already in existence - https://www.englishdemocrats.party/about

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