[Politics] Brexit

Westdene Seagull · May 24, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
What a twisted response to that post.

How's it twisted ? [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION] correctly claimed there are laws the UK Parliament can't create independently ..... I've given a few examples of where we don't hold power over our own law making. It might be painful to dye in the wool remainers but it is the truth.

Simple question - can we remove VAT from sanitary products independently ?

Thunder Bolt · May 24, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
How's it twisted ? The [MENTION=18559]dingodan[/MENTION] correctly claimed there are laws the UK Parliament can't create independently ..... I've given a few examples of where we don't hold power over our own law making. It might be painful to dye in the wool remainers but it is the truth.

Simple question - can we remove VAT from sanitary products indepentantly ?

5% of our laws are from the EU. I think that 95% of good outweighs the bad.

A1X · May 24, 2019

dingodan said:
If you are against Brexit and for remaining in the EU, then defend remaining in the EU. Argue in favor of the EU making laws we have to obey, argue in favor of not being able to make trade deals, argue in favor of not being able to control EU immigration, but don't just pretend reality is other than how it is.

It's not pretending. What you claim is not reality. You might not like the fact that what you're saying isn't true, or you might not be aware that what you are saying is not true.

But be under no illusions. What you are saying is not true.

Westdene Seagull · May 24, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
5% of our laws are from the EU. I think that 95% of good outweighs the bad.

Your percentages are utterly wrong.

Kalimantan Gull · May 24, 2019

dingodan said:
He was asking for reforms.

You are naive if you think self determination and being subject to the decisions of others (even if you have some influence over them) is the same thing.

I'm subject to the decisions of others all the time, in our parliament, in our town halls, in our courts and so on. The maximum group size for humans is about 100 people, beyond that groups get too big for everyone to know about everyone else's business. But larger and larger unions are more successful, people are safer and more prosperous so the natural course of history is for people to gather in bigger and bigger groups, as clans, villages, towns, countries, but also as companies, religions, systems of government and society to stay together and work together with strangers we all must believe in the same general set of ideals and principles - if we all believe in the mission of the company we work for, that company will be successful on the back of strangers working together. If we all believe in the country of England that country will be strong.

Point being, the larger our union the better we will be, as long as we all believe positively in that union. That is where our failings have come with the EU, our leaders, and the EU leaders, have failed to bring enough people along with it, to get enough people to view the EU with positivity. The USA is a similar size to the EU in terms of population, but they have done a much better job of getting their citizens to believe in their union.

A1X · May 24, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Your percentages are utterly wrong.

This is true. Hansard puts the EU law percentage at around 11%, most of which is around alignment of standards (e.g. food safety, money laundering).

dingodan · May 24, 2019

A1X said:
It's not pretending. What you claim is not reality. You might not like the fact that what you're saying isn't true, or you might not be aware that what you are saying is not true.

But be under no illusions. What you are saying is not true.

Ok fine. You must believe then that we are self determined, we make our own laws, we can trade with the world on our own terms, and we have full control of immigration to this country.

In which case, like I said, you are the one who doesn't care about the facts.

& you are not alone in arguing like this, your failure to deal with reality is why Brexit won the first time, and why it will always win this argument.

If you want to make an effective case for remaining in the EU, then you are going to have to actually defend remaining in the EU. All you are doing right now is agreeing with the goals leavers want to achieve, only you are pretending that we don't have to leave to achieve them.

Westdene Seagull · May 24, 2019

Kalimantan Gull said:
I'm subject to the decisions of others all the time, in our parliament, in our town halls, in our courts and so on. The maximum group size for humans is about 100 people, beyond that groups get too big for everyone to know about everyone else's business. But larger and larger unions are more successful, people are safer and more prosperous so the natural course of history is for people to gather in bigger and bigger groups, as clans, villages, towns, countries, but also as companies, religions, systems of government and society to stay together and work together with strangers we all must believe in the same general set of ideals and principles - if we all believe in the mission of the company we work for, that company will be successful on the back of strangers working together. If we all believe in the country of England that country will be strong.

Point being, the larger our union the better we will be, as long as we all believe positively in that union. That is where our failings have come with the EU, our leaders, and the EU leaders, have failed to bring enough people along with it, to get enough people to view the EU with positivity. The USA is a similar size to the EU in terms of population, but they have done a much better job of getting their citizens to believe in their union.

I don't disagree with you but you have to remember a majority of members of the EU joined on the basis of a free trade market not economic, fiscal and political union. Many countries within the original trade agreement union have never given their voters the option to reject the expansions ..... scope creep in project terms .... and until 2016 the UK was one of those members that had denied the voters the right to voice their opinion. Now the UK voters have been given a voice they have rejected the growth from the original free trade market. Big in political terms doesn't mean good !

Deleted member 2719 · May 24, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
Exactly but the Brexiters still keep believing the lies.

So what about the scarmongering that the remoaners were spouting?

All lies.

Thunder Bolt · May 24, 2019

Westdene Seagull said:
Your percentages are utterly wrong.

A1X said:
This is true. Hansard puts the EU law percentage at around 11%, most of which is around alignment of standards (e.g. food safety, money laundering).

My apologies 11% as opposed to 89%. I got duff information last week.

Bold Seagull · May 24, 2019

A General Election has to be called now.

Government is split and leaderless.

It doesn't have the majority to pass the legislation it wants to pass.

We cannot get consensus on Brexit.

Our Parliamentary democracy is not able to reconcile itself to the demands of Brexit.

Put it to the people, we need to elect a new Parliament. Simple as.

Thunder Bolt · May 24, 2019

Mouldy Boots said:
So what about the scarmongering that the remoaners were spouting?

All lies.

We haven't left yet. I haven't ever scarmongered in my life.

dingodan · May 24, 2019

Kalimantan Gull said:
I'm subject to the decisions of others all the time, in our parliament, in our town halls, in our courts and so on. The maximum group size for humans is about 100 people, beyond that groups get too big for everyone to know about everyone else's business. But larger and larger unions are more successful, people are safer and more prosperous so the natural course of history is for people to gather in bigger and bigger groups, as clans, villages, towns, countries, but also as companies, religions, systems of government and society to stay together and work together with strangers we all must believe in the same general set of ideals and principles - if we all believe in the mission of the company we work for, that company will be successful on the back of strangers working together. If we all believe in the country of England that country will be strong.

Point being, the larger our union the better we will be, as long as we all believe positively in that union. That is where our failings have come with the EU, our leaders, and the EU leaders, have failed to bring enough people along with it, to get enough people to view the EU with positivity. The USA is a similar size to the EU in terms of population, but they have done a much better job of getting their citizens to believe in their union.

In the US they have stronger "States Rights" mentality than we have National Sovereignty mentality (and they have the 10th Amendment). & the Federal Government is still percieved to be an enemy by many, on many issues. "Ever closer Federalism" isn't exactly the direction of the U.S. If anything, it's the opposite.

I agree that uniting principles are good, but one good uniting principle, maybe the best, is the right of self determination. Respecting the boundaries between one another.

"But larger and larger unions are more successful" - Wrong. There is a limit. There is a point at which power feels so distant and far from people that the "union" becomes it's own enemy. The more local the government, the more empowered and represented people feel. The bigger and wider the more distant the government, the less empowered and represented the people feel. Think about how much say you feel you could have at a town hall, compared to at Westminster, compared to in Brussels. It gets ever smaller. This is why the EU is failing to unite the people of Europe. It can't be done, at least not by way of a single government ruling over the entire continent. Bad idea to even try it.

clapham_gull · May 24, 2019

A1X said:
This is true. Hansard puts the EU law percentage at around 11%, most of which is around alignment of standards (e.g. food safety, money laundering).

You also have to factor in that some existing laws were

1) Already in place and simply "aligned" with a pan EU one
2) Were lobbied for and enacted by either our politicians or industries.

The much quoted myth of "straight bananas" invented by Boris was simply a method of rating vegetables and fruit so the buyer knew what there were buying. We already had a similar system in place and the unification was lobbied by British buyers.

None of this is going away when we leave if we wish to continue to trade.

The thick as mince brigade will however attempt to persuade you that you can trade freely without legislation.

Blue Valkyrie · May 24, 2019

dingodan said:
Of course the deal was acceptable to you as a staunch remainer. It wasn't really leaving.

The one thing you couldn't live with is actually, properly leaving. The thing people actually voted for.

The Brexit decision didn't damage the country. The refusal to accept it and get it done has damaged the country. A fudged new treaty will damage the country and create further division, revoking article 50 will damage the country and create further division. No deal is the only thing now which won't damage the country.

[emoji38]ol:

Biggest comedy sentence on NSC ever.

[emoji38]ol:

A1X · May 24, 2019

dingodan said:
Ok fine. You must believe then that we are self determined, we make our own laws, we can trade with the world on our own terms, and we have full control of immigration to this country.

We make the overwhelming majority of our own laws, and those laws which come from the EU are generally passed on the nod as they relate to wider things (e.g. aligning food standards or a response to international money laundering issues). The UK also has a veto on EU laws which it does not like, and an exemption from most of the areas where the EU applies law (e.g. the social chapter).

We already trade with the world on terms we dictate (as do other EU nations, such as the recent French deal with India), but the UK is also able to get preferential treatment as part of a massive trading bloc compared to what it is able to get on it's own. Let's take the example of the recent EU trade deal with Japan signed at the end of last year, what specifically about that do you feel the UK could have done better on had it negotiated a trade deal alone with the Japanese?

On immigration, as stated previously we already have full control over non-EU immigration. We also have plenty of scope within the Freedom of Movement legislation to restrict people arriving, the UK Government actively chooses not to enforce it, and has done ever since Maastricht. Germany, for example, applies many restrictions and prevents people from staying in Germany if they do not have a job within 6 months, for example. Many European nations prevent the claiming of certain state benefits, again perfectly acceptable within FoM legislation at an EU level.

dingodan said:
If you want to make an effective case for remaining in the EU, then you are going to have to actually defend remaining in the EU. All you are doing right now is agreeing with the goals leavers want to achieve, only you are pretending that we don't have to leave to achieve them.

Very well. Being in the EU has benefited the UK economy massively, lest we forget prior to joining we were widely regarded as "the sick man of Europe", and our economy is now built on the basis of providing a home within the EU for major multinational organisations and we are a boom nation for technology start-ups. Most of our big industries have thrived through being in the EU (computer games development, music production, the UK film industry). EU grants have bought many deprived UK towns and cities back to life, the Welsh valleys have benefited enormously from this for instance. Then you have the EU funded science and technology projects which have made the UK one of the world-leading countries for these industries, and helped to lower costs of drugs for the NHS as a result.

If you want to find out what the EU has funded in your local area, check out https://www.myeu.uk/. Even I was amazed at some of the things they are funding. I challenge you to find something in your local area you don't like.

Thunder Bolt · May 24, 2019

dingodan said:
In the US they have stronger "States Rights" mentality than we have National Sovereignty mentality (and they have the 10th Amendment). & the Federal Government is still percieved to be an enemy by many, on many issues. "Ever closer Federalism" isn't exactly the direction of the U.S. If anything, it's the opposite.

I agree that uniting principles are good, but one good uniting principle, maybe the best, is the right of self determination. Respecting the boundaries between one another.

"But larger and larger unions are more successful" - Wrong. There is a limit. There is a point at which power feels so distant and far from people that the "union" becomes it's own enemy. The more local the government, the more empowered and represented people feel. The bigger and wider the more distant the government, the less empowered and represented the people feel. Think about how much say you feel you could have at a town hall, compared to at Westminster, compared to in Brussels. It gets ever smaller. This is why the EU is failing to unite the people of Europe. It can't be done, at least not by way of a single government ruling over the entire continent. Bad idea to even try it.

This is why you have such a skewed idea of what the EU actually is. That is not how the EU Parliament works.

It's amazing that 27 countries agreed on the Withdrawal Bill, but our government can't get the UK Parliament to agree it.

A1X · May 24, 2019

clapham_gull said:
The much quoted myth of "straight bananas" invented by Boris was simply a method of rating vegetables and fruit so the buyer knew what there were buying. We already had a similar system in place and the unification was lobbied by British buyers.

It was also repealed over 20 years ago, and yet STILL we have people claiming it is in place.

Thunder Bolt · May 24, 2019

A1X said:
Very well. Being in the EU has benefited the UK economy massively, lest we forget prior to joining we were widely regarded as "the sick man of Europe", and our economy is now built on the basis of providing a home within the EU for major multinational organisations and we are a boom nation for technology start-ups. Most of our big industries have thrived through being in the EU (computer games development, music production, the UK film industry). EU grants have bought many deprived UK towns and cities back to life, the Welsh valleys have benefited enormously from this for instance. Then you have the EU funded science and technology projects which have made the UK one of the world-leading countries for these industries, and helped to lower costs of drugs for the NHS as a result.

If you want to find out what the EU has funded in your local area, check out https://www.myeu.uk/. Even I was amazed at some of the things they are funding. I challenge you to find something in your local area you don't like.

EU funding for projects has to be matched by equal amounts of the country's own treasury. When we had the dreadful flooding in Somerset a few years ago, the EU offered money for flood defences but Cameron turned it down, because he didn't want to match it.

Deleted member 2719 · May 24, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
We haven't left yet. I haven't ever scarmongered in my life.

These were figures being spouted about by the remainers, so wide of the mark it's untrue.

Sorry I wasn't suggesting you had personally scaremongered, but believe me, this sort of thing has grated with a lot of brexiteers, as its just desperation on the remoaners part.

Yes, there will be a dip, but we will survive like we do when we have any recession, we are in a good current position to make that break to freedom again and dictate our own future for our country.

The sooner it happens the better.

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