[Politics] Brexit

melias shoes · Sep 1, 2019

JC Footy Genius said:
Nonsense they rowed back on their promises purely for party political reasons. Labours entire Brexit strategy has only one goal .... how best to position themselves to gain power.

Labours latest laughable policy is to offer a referendum when in government after negotiating their unicorn Brexit deal and then almost certainly campaign against it

Exactly

DavidinSouthampton · Sep 1, 2019

Pretty pink fairy said:
Romanian criminals are a great asset along with a host of other undisirables strolling into the country, don't worry we'll still be trading with the EU ,40 years is a short time in the general context how did we cope before then .
people have decided they don't want to be in the club any longer
It's about time you accepted that and moved on
regards
DF

I have accepted it. That doesn't stop me thinking it is a stupid thing to do.

We will still be trading with the EU, but on what terms? Perhaps the whole thing is just a job creation scheme for trade terms negotiators.

Leaving the EU won't stop crime. It will just make it more difficult for the forces of Law and Order to deal with it.

theonlymikey · Sep 1, 2019

larus said:
Oh, you mean the ECJ that stopped us deporting Abdul Hamza? That ECJ.

One deportation is nothing compared to what losing the the European Arrest warrant will lose.

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theonlymikey · Sep 1, 2019

melias shoes said:
Very desperate mikey.

What do you have to lose? If leaving is in our best interest then we will vote to.leave again won't we....

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Mellotron · Sep 1, 2019

The Rivet said:
You are a lightweight 'ninny' in comparison to larus. Don't make any more of a fool of yourself. It's uncomfortable reading.........

Still waiting for you to tell me which benefits my sister in law has both been valid to receive and has received since moving to England, as you have made clear you know about this subject.

Or were you talking utter shit and made to look a prat by someone with actual life experience of the subject in question?

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sep 1, 2019

Murray 17 said:
If another referendum included more than 2 options, Remain would win, because the Leave vote would be split.

Not if the poll is set up properly. I posted on this ages ago. Basically you set up a poll with all the options that are supported and that have not already been ruled out by the EU (for example hard Brexit no deal, fine, but all our present benefits without free movement of people or our paying money to the EU, obviously not). Then you allow people to vote for as many of the options as they want. So a hard brexitter will vote for hard Brexit only, and a hard remainer will vote for remain only. And everyone else will vote for stuff in between. If There is a realistic leave option that folk are comfortable with, leave will win.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sep 1, 2019

Grombleton said:
After reading some of your comments on here tonight, I can sleep soundly knowing i'm not the loser. I haven't been asked any questions, so none to answer. You seem upset though.

If you're looking for extreme, then i suggest you read some of the things your cohorts on this thread have said...some of them have even managed complete sentences.

I had a weird exchange with someone dazzled by 'we must leave' rhetoric last night who seemed to have lost the power of language as well as reason. Fortunately I have all the illiterate Brextards on ignore now. There are some good 'leave' posters who I still read, but they are being drowned out by the gammon now.

Reading that post yesterday, quoting Cummings stating that any tory MP voting to fend off hard Brexit will be automatically deselected - I thought 'wow'. I find it amazing that people are still backing Boris after that. No election manifesto promise, nor party policy of any party has ever been policed in such a way. And hard brexit is not party policy or an election manifesto promise. This really is a coup, isn't it.

I also raise an eyebrow at the likes of Javid who are offering the rictus smile of devotion and standing idly by while Cummings frogmarches a member of his staff off the premises. My god, the level of fear running through the veins of the ambitious tories with a conscience must be immense.....but . . . .maybe not fear . . .hats off to Boris for having the nous to appoint (so it would seem ) tories without a conscience to the great offices of state. Evidently Javid is one of these, happy to shrug his shoulders at any outrage. If the man had any principles and sense of honour he'd resign. There are plenty of decent tories who would (and have, after smelling where the wind is now coming from).

The current tory leadership is making Momentum look saintly and even Militant seem reasonable. I am beginning to consider it the lesser of two evils to reluctantly return my vote to Labour when the GE is announced.

Remember, we are talking about Brexit here. Something Boris didn't support till the eleventh hour. This is not a fundamental issue, like the death penalty, equal right for all citizens, etc. Our EU membership was always, to the majority of us, a nuanced issue. It is an issue of fundamental quasi-theocratic relevance to Boris only because he has figured that supporting and delivering Brexit will cement the support of conservatives for electoral purposes. There is no intrinsically honourable mission here. It has been built up and sold as a matter of honour, something the 'people' entrusted the government with, a 'sacred' promise they must deliver (and all that bollocks) simply to justify the present agenda: deliver Brexit and cement the tory vote. The referendum was advisory, it was never the political equivalent of the quest for the Holy Grail.

I am beginning to genuinely fear what Boris will do next. I just hope he gets distracted by new skirt and loses his focus, like he normally does.

WATFORD zero · Sep 1, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Not if the poll is set up properly. I posted on this ages ago. Basically you set up a poll with all the options that are supported and that have not already been ruled out by the EU (for example hard Brexit no deal, fine, but all our present benefits without free movement of people or our paying money to the EU, obviously not). Then you allow people to vote for as many of the options as they want. So a hard brexitter will vote for hard Brexit only, and a hard remainer will vote for remain only. And everyone else will vote for stuff in between. If There is a realistic leave option that folk are comfortable with, leave will win.

Here you go, this one was done about a year ago, and very helpfully explained by one of the sensible leavers Triggaaar

https://www.northstandchat.com/showthread.php?368879-1st-2nd-choice-Referendum-Poll

It has been quoted and explained many many times, but certain people struggle to get their head around the many ways a second referendum could work without 'splitting the leave vote' :shrug:

osgood · Sep 1, 2019

theonlymikey said:
I have, have you?

You're trying to suggest a deal voted down three times, that no10 has said is dead and won't be brought back to the house and even if the negotiated backstop is removed the ERG would vote against it is "Still on the table".

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Good, yes . i have too,
My point is , is that if we "go to the table" without no deal option , is that the only thing that we have left is that same deal which has been voted down 3 times already ,which the EU wont be under any pressure to renegotiate
if we go with a no deal option , we have some leverage , however slim that you may think that is , to re-negotiate any aspect of T May deal

WATFORD zero · Sep 1, 2019

Pretty pink fairy said:
Romanian criminals are a great asset along with a host of other undisirables strolling into the country, don't worry we'll still be trading with the EU ,40 years is a short time in the general context how did we cope before then .
people have decided they don't want to be in the club any longer
It's about time you accepted that and moved on
regards
DF

Almost as bigger asset to the country as a pathetic, nazi supporting, racist, anti Semite, idiot who lives on benefits and contributes nothing

The Clamp · Sep 1, 2019

Cripes, it really has boiled down to the absolute dregs of the last few fervid Brexiteers, desperately trying to convince themselves Brexit could work in any way shape or form. Yes, yes, we are likely going to crash out with no deal. Been obvious for months. But trying to front it out like you still actually believe Brexit is good for the U.K.
I doubt many of you even made it to the polling station way back in 2016 so trying to convince us you believe in it now? Pffft.

melias shoes · Sep 1, 2019

theonlymikey said:
What do you have to lose? If leaving is in our best interest then we will vote to.leave again won't we....

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Mikey we've voted. Now stop trying to stop it. How can leave win again if it's removed from the options.

theonlymikey · Sep 1, 2019

osgood said:
Good, yes . i have too,
My point is , is that if we "go to the table" without no deal option , is that the only thing that we have left is that same deal which has been voted down 3 times already ,which the EU wont be under any pressure to renegotiate
if we go with a no deal option , we have some leverage , however slim that you may think that is , to re-negotiate any aspect of T May deal

We went to within days of leaving without a deal twice. Both times the EU did not back down.

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WATFORD zero · Sep 1, 2019

larus said:
Taking back control was so much more than the ROI border FFS.

Most sane people realise that the border has been politicised by the EU/Remainers to make is seem as though we can’t leave the EU. There already is a difference between the ROI/NI in terms of tax/vat - do you accept that? How can that work?

Of course there are issues, but the border in NI is not a reason for the 5th largest economy in the world to have to be a vassal state of the EU. It’s absolutely pathetic to use terrorism as an argument for that. We won’t be erecting any physical infrastructure, and checks can be done away from the border.

Most goods imported into the UK are NOT CHECKED. It would be impossible. Do you accept that?

I see you are still pushing your 'there is no need for a border' a year after you last tried this line. I wonder why, if we can operate with no borders, and checks away from the borders, there has been no-one on the Brexit side come up with this most simple of solutions.

The simple fact is that if there is no border then we are giving tariff free access to the EU. If we give tariff free access to the EU, then we have to give it to the whole world under WTO Most Favoured Nation.

Can you see that having given tariff free access to the whole world, with no reciprocal arrangement, it may then be a little problematical to try and negotiate a trade deal with any of them :facepalm:

larus said:
I don’t want a No Deal, but i would go for a No Deal over the WA or any other legally binding treaty. Whatever we enter into we need to be able to leave if we want.

The only things which must be stuck to are:
End of free movement.
End of ECJ oversight.
End of rules/regulation being flowed down from Brussels (I understand that any company supply products to the EU must make their products comply with their regulations, but that is completely different).

i would like a FTA. Simple as - and that is what I voted for.

The WA is a remainer cooked up treaty. (TM, Hammond, Robins, etc.). If only remainers would acknowledge the fact that it does not respect the referendum, it would be easier to have a sensible debate (oh, and if remainers would answer questions when others have answered theirs ).

Well done, you've managed to give a list of your red lines.

Now all you need to do (in the briefest of outlines) is explain how this good deal would work that would benefit Britain, protect the EU's single market and stick to your 'red lines'. I'm sure you have an answer and haven't, like so many others, been completely taken in the the Leave campaigns 'good deal' fantasy :shrug:

JC Footy Genius · Sep 1, 2019

theonlymikey said:
Just for you JC, I wasted 3 seconds of my life googling and copying and pasting. Just. for. you.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...byn/news/101702/donald-tusk-tells-theresa-may

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You certainly wasted your time ..

European Council President Donald Tusk, Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker and EU27 leaders have consistently said the Withdrawal Agreement will not and cannot be renegotiated. On 11 June, for example, Mr Juncker said the Agreement was not a treaty between Theresa May and himself, but between the UK and the EU, and that it had to be “respected by whoever is the next British Prime Minister”. The EU has indicated that it would be open to further clarifications of and additions to the Political Declaration, but that the Withdrawal Agreement will remain as it is... 

There are further obstacles to renegotiation. Legally binding EU Decisions were adopted by the EU27 and agreed to by the UK when extensions to Article 50 were granted. These Decisions, taken under the provisions of Article 50(3), explicitly rule out the reopening of the Withdrawal Agreement.

The European Council Decision of 22 March and the EUCO Decision of 11 April set out conditions for extension: they both state that the extension: “excludes any re-opening of the Withdrawal Agreement”.  In a letter on 22 March and another on 11 April, the UK’s Permanent Representative to the EU, Sir Tim Barrow, confirmed UK agreement to the extensions and their conditions. 

The process for leaving the EU falls under EU law and until the UK leaves the EU, it continues to be a part of the EU legal order. These Decisions are therefore legally binding on both the EU27 and the UK. They can, of course, be revisited – but that would require the political will of the EU27 to revisit both these Decisions and the Withdrawal Agreement. At present such political will appears to be absent.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.u...egotiated-and-can-parliament-prevent-no-deal/

WATFORD zero · Sep 1, 2019

osgood said:
Good, yes . i have too,
My point is , is that if we "go to the table" without no deal option , is that the only thing that we have left is that same deal which has been voted down 3 times already ,which the EU wont be under any pressure to renegotiate
if we go with a no deal option , we have some leverage , however slim that you may think that is , to re-negotiate any aspect of T May deal

But what aspect of the deal do you think can be renegotiated to give you what you want bearing in mind it has to protect the EU's single market and meet Britain's red lines ?

*edit*

Or i see [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] is on board so maybe he can explain this 'good deal'. I've asked him numerous times over the past weeks, but I'm sure the delay in answering is because he wants to make sure he gets his solution completely right and doesn't say something stupid like last time when he thought we should just 'take out the backstop'

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sep 1, 2019

osgood said:
Good, yes . i have too,
My point is , is that if we "go to the table" without no deal option , is that the only thing that we have left is that same deal which has been voted down 3 times already ,which the EU wont be under any pressure to renegotiate
if we go with a no deal option , we have some leverage , however slim that you may think that is , to re-negotiate any aspect of T May deal

Very suspicious punctuation here. And a Chelsea reference too....could it be?....

JC Footy Genius · Sep 1, 2019

MP's returning to parliament tomorrow which will probably come as a shock to all those claiming Dictator Boris has shut down parliament.

Anyway here's an easy to follow chart by the delightful Isabel Hardman on what might happen this week ....

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/...rent-sorts-of-chaos-looming-over-westminster/

Harry Wilson's tackle · Sep 1, 2019

OK, so putting my feelings about Brexit aside.....

The Boris plan seems to be to have a Hard Brexit and negociate arrangements afterwards. OK, it is a sort of plan, and it makes a visceral-level sort of sense, given the impasse of the last 3 years. Let's accept it as an inevitability for the moment....

So, what issues will we have to negociate after we have left?
And what will happen about each of these issues in the interim (and by interim I mean from the day we leave to the day each agreement is signed off)?

If anyone wishes to reply would you mind posting facts rather than opinions? I have my own opinions about what will happen, but they are not facts, which is why I'm asking the questions.

For example:

Traveling to France/We'd need a visa, or we'd carry on as if nothing has changed?
Importing stuff via large lorry/They'd need a visa or they'd just breeze in like they do now?
Being an EU national working in the UK/They are already fine, or they'd have to stop working and fill out forms?
Traveling from Ulster to Eire and back/Folk would need a visa and border checking, or there would still be an open border?
Fishing in British waters/the EU protections and arrangements would carry on or we would have foreign boats back in our waters?
Brits working in the EU/no change, or they'd need to fill out forms or lose their job, with no guarantees?
General trade/it would just carry on like nothing has changed, or nothing would be traded until new paperwork is completed?

etc.

I am not pontificating here - I am assuming we Brexit Hard in a few weeks because no deal can be struck and I would like to know how long, with no deals in place, it will take to ensure that what runs smoothly now will run smoothly again.

WATFORD zero · Sep 1, 2019

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
OK, so putting my feelings about Brexit aside.....

The Boris plan seems to be to have a Hard Brexit and negociate arrangements afterwards. OK, it is a sort of plan, and it makes a visceral-level sort of sense, given the impasse of the last 3 years. Let's accept it as an inevitability for the moment....

So, what issues will we have to negociate after we have left?
And what will happen about each of these issues in the interim (and by interim I mean from the day we leave to the day each agreement is signed off)?

If anyone wishes to reply would you mind posting facts rather than opinions? I have my own opinions about what will happen, but they are not facts, which is why I'm asking the questions.

For example:

Traveling to France/We'd need a visa, or we'd carry on as if nothing has changed?
Importing stuff via large lorry/They'd need a visa or they'd just breeze in like they do now?
Being an EU national working in the UK/They are already fine, or they'd have to stop working and fill out forms?
Traveling from Ulster to Eire and back/Folk would need a visa and border checking, or there would still be an open border?
Fishing in British waters/the EU protections and arrangements would carry on or we would have foreign boats back in our waters?
Brits working in the EU/no change, or they'd need to fill out forms or lose their job, with no guarantees?
General trade/it would just carry on like nothing has changed, or nothing would be traded until new paperwork is completed?

etc.

I am not pontificating here - I am assuming we Brexit Hard in a few weeks because no deal can be struck and I would like to know how long, with no deals in place, it will take to ensure that what runs smoothly now will run smoothly again.

And those are just half a dozen out of the thousands of reasons it won't happen.

But it won't be fault of those that sold the leavers the 'good deal' lie and then, when found out, sold them the 'no deal' lie :nono:

It will be the fault of Remainers, MP's, The EU, Theresa May, You, Me, A lack of Belief, etc etc etc

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