[Politics] Brexit

Baldseagull · Jun 29, 2019

mikeyjh said:
Well, I genuinely would struggle to see how someone who voted to remain would have seen something that fundamentally changed their minds and for those who voted to leave? Well, people have got poorer, the knock on effects of austerity rumble on and the media continue to blame the EU and/or immigrants for all their woes, plus ca change.

You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think. In my circle of friends, more and more are changing their minds from a leave position to remain though, I think dropping a couple of facts in gently and letting them sink in has been the catalyst for some fact checking of their own and the discovery of how misleading the leave campaign was.

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 29, 2019

Lincoln Imp said:
Biggest trade deal ever?

Oh well, that's another four countries we're tearing up trade deals with - the EU has just signed a huge deal with the Mercosur bloc. Who needs Brazil and Argentina anyway?

Bollocks. That’s scuppered the Peru Free Trade Deal. Albania it is then.

Astute timing by the EU though.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Jun 29, 2019

Baldseagull said:
I see myself mostly as English, but I am also British and European. I will still be if we leave the EU, the EU has little to do with my identity. I do not fear change, I would just like that change to be a change for the better, and not a regression. It always seems to me that leavers end up saying they fear what the EU will become (change), once you have pointed out that all the things they think the EU is, are not true.

Using the phrase metropolitan liberal elite, makes you look like someone who has been indoctrinated, rather than someone who has come to a realisation, it does not help us get to an understanding of each others viewpoint. Clearly 48% of the country are not a Southern based, metropolitan, liberal, elite. How does that model fit with the ref result in Scotland? In Northern Ireland?
Please don't think that voting to Leave was anti establishment, I know Farage says it, and people may have felt that was what they were doing, but Farage is talking bollocks. Voting to leave an organisation that has brought about change and is less than 3 decades old, to restore some notional sovereignty to the old Etonians that have been running our country since the 1700's, is not anti establishment.

There is a middle ground, and if we leave it will be somewhere on that middle ground.

Nicely put. I'd say that Mo's analysis had a touch of the self-serving narrative about it. On your 'middle ground ' point there's some recent research in the US that shows a considerable overlap in beliefs and values between Republican and Democrat supporters which apparently is much greater than either set believes to be the case.* This rather cuts against the 'polarisation' model that is the new received wisdom - and is heavily accentuated by Mo G. (and to be honest virtually everyone else on this thread albeit in different ways).

It's almost as if you have to 'catch yourself' agreeing with someone you believe has very little in common with yourself. I don't know how much this would 'play' with the Brexit issue but sure as hell, when it's all over, someone has got to start stitching the country back together again. I don't know who or how and I dare not even estimate when. But I do know his name won't be Boris.

*https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...licans-republicans-are-wrong-about-democrats/

Tubby-McFat-Fuc · Jun 29, 2019

nicko31 said:
The Brexiteers said we could have our cake and eat it, that was a lie, we can't

Now the lies can't be delivered they want no deal, they said lots of other things well and they never said no deal in 2016, the people must be asked.

If they vote for no deal, well lets go ahead and we deal with the consequences, but not until there is a mandate to do so

That is what really getting on with it means

I dont really bother this thread any more, but it is usually at the top of the page, I sometimes check it out to see if the same old people (no you) are still posting their self important crap... and they are.

But I have to pick you up on one thing there. A lot of things are said and people are beginning to believe their own views, when the fact don't line up.

nicko31 said:
they want no deal, they said lots of other things well and they never said no deal in 2016, the people must be asked.
getting on with it means

Well actually the PM at the time said this.

And when we have negotiated that new settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in-or-out choice: to stay in the European Union on these new terms, or to come out altogether.

It will be an in-out referendum.

The people rejected "the deal" the PM brought back from the EU. We was told it was an in-out vote.

The people voted out.

Asking them to vote again because we never voted for no deal is not factually correct. We was offered the PM's deal in 2015, and the people said no.

Rightly or wrongly, and that is a whole other argument, the people rejected the deal in 2015 and voted out. All you remainers are asking for now, is for a 2nd vote because we may leave with no. That what was voted for in 2015.

The PM offered the best deal he could get, said take or leave it, in or out, and the UK voted out.

Please stop trying to lie to yourself and say we never voted for no deal, as we reject the deal on offer, so did.

WATFORD zero · Jun 29, 2019

Tubby-McFat-Fuc said:
I dont really bother this thread any more, but it is usually at the top of the page, I sometimes check it out to see if the same old people (no you) are still posting their self important crap... and they are.

But I have to pick you up on one thing there. A lot of things are said and people are beginning to believe their own views, when the fact don't line up.

Well actually the PM at the time said this.

And when we have negotiated that new settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in-or-out choice: to stay in the European Union on these new terms, or to come out altogether.

It will be an in-out referendum.

The people rejected "the deal" the PM brought back from the EU. We was told it was an in-out vote.

The people voted out.

Asking them to vote again because we never voted for no deal is not factually correct. We was offered the PM's deal in 2015, and the people said no.

Rightly or wrongly, and that is a whole other argument, the people rejected the deal in 2015 and voted out. All you remainers are asking for now, is for a 2nd vote because we may leave with no. That what was voted for in 2015.

The PM offered the best deal he could get, said take or leave it, in or out, and the UK voted out.

Please stop trying to lie to yourself and say we never voted for no deal, as we reject the deal on offer, so did.

I think the fact do line up.

I think that you was confused and that what you think you was offered and what you was actually offered was two different things, and also what year it was. It was 2016 :wink:

Hope your million dollar import business is still surviving all this Brexit uncertainty :thumbsup:

A1X · Jun 29, 2019

Tubby-McFat-Fuc said:
All you remainers are asking for now, is for a 2nd vote because we may leave with no. That what was voted for in 2015.

Interesting. Let us put this to the test against what a vote for Leave meant as per the claims by the official Leave campaign Vote Leave (the campaign of, among others, Boris Johnson).

Specifically, let us refer to point 4 on page 11 of this document;

"Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop - we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave"

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...inal/1463496002/Why_Vote_Leave.pdf?1463496002

As they were the official Leave campaign, what they were saying and writing is officially the position of the Leave side. Therefore what you are saying is factually not true. Even slightly.

Lever · Jun 29, 2019

A1X said:
Interesting. Let us put this to the test against what a vote for Leave meant as per the claims by the official Leave campaign Vote Leave (the campaign of, among others, Boris Johnson).

Specifically, let us refer to point 4 on page 11 of this document;

"Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop - we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave"

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...inal/1463496002/Why_Vote_Leave.pdf?1463496002

As they were the official Leave campaign, what they were saying and writing is officially the position of the Leave side. Therefore what you are saying is factually not true. Even slightly.

Once again you have done the research for the rest of us. Thank you.
Whether the Leave lobby can legitimately claim they 'knew what they were voting for....' in 2016 is debatable.... but a 'No Deal Brexit was never considered an option in the referendum. To state otherwise is nothing short of rewriting history.

Fungus · Jun 29, 2019

ManOfSussex said:
Pretty pink fairy - Is the original.
Pretty Plnk Fairy - Is the in-house parody.

If you're in any doubt, just put the original on ignore, you won't be missing much.

I put Ppf on ignore the other day*, and you are right. The difference between the two is much clearer now!

*he's the only one on my ignore list, I try to avoid blocking posters.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Jun 29, 2019

Jeremy Hunt - the opportunities open to us after Brexit will be incredible

Dictionary - 'incredible': impossible to believe.

daveinplzen · Jun 29, 2019

There should be a 2nd vote on the reality, rather than the fantasy. Leavers seem more concerned ith being 'winners' rather than what's good for the country. I've yet to see a leaver show some coherent positives rather than the ':what could happen, what may happen, what I think will happen' bullcrap

Eeyore · Jun 29, 2019

The Clamp said:
Pretty pink fairy, formerly Das Reich (google it) is a fascist, racist prick who should have been banned years ago but for some reason the mods have a jelly spine on this matter. Reading GB’s ridiculous excuses for doing nothing was frankly embarrassing.

Pretty Pink fairy is an equally annoying prick but is a spoof of Ppf.

They’re both deeply unfunny cretins.

I like [MENTION=34206]Pretty Plnk Fairy[/MENTION]

It's funny doing a double take each time and having to check the user name.

Baldseagull · Jun 29, 2019

A1X said:
Interesting. Let us put this to the test against what a vote for Leave meant as per the claims by the official Leave campaign Vote Leave (the campaign of, among others, Boris Johnson).

Specifically, let us refer to point 4 on page 11 of this document;

"Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop - we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave"

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...inal/1463496002/Why_Vote_Leave.pdf?1463496002

As they were the official Leave campaign, what they were saying and writing is officially the position of the Leave side. Therefore what you are saying is factually not true. Even slightly.

Now some say, the people knew they would be worse off, and voted leave anyway, it was all made clear by the remain side that it would be damaging. This may be true of some, but it is a stretch to say it was believed by all.

nicko31 · Jun 30, 2019

Ian Dunt in 60 seconds why GATT Article 24 is a BS solution...

https://twitter.com/i/status/1144881971606241286

But they still spout this lie over and over, and the right wing press are in on it

albion68 · Jun 30, 2019

Seeing as the EU have said they have are not changing the withdrawal agreement apart from some minor details ,i would be interested what posters think the EU strategy is as in they are not worried about no deal .If they are not going to budge how is it going to pan out bearing in mind there won`t be any one to negotiate with before 31 Oct .Not having a go at the EU just curious how we are going to get a deal at all .

Kinky Gerbil · Jun 30, 2019

nicko31 said:
Ian Dunt in 60 seconds why GATT Article 24 is a BS solution...

https://twitter.com/i/status/1144881971606241286

But they still spout this lie over and over, and the right wing press are in on it

The media have let this go on and on for a couple of years, no one calls bullshit on this.

WATFORD zero · Jun 30, 2019

albion68 said:
Seeing as the EU have said they have are not changing the withdrawal agreement apart from some minor details ,i would be interested what posters think the EU strategy is as in they are not worried about no deal .If they are not going to budge how is it going to pan out bearing in mind there won`t be any one to negotiate with before 31 Oct .Not having a go at the EU just curious how we are going to get a deal at all .

The EU's negotiation strategy has been very simple and has been explained numerous times since the referendum and hasn't changed at all. I was going to explain yet again but.........

To be honest, I am on holiday and really can't be arsed explaining it in simple terms for the umpteenth time, in order to be called condescending when the penny finally f***ing drops :wave:

A1X · Jun 30, 2019

So Jeremy Hunt said this morning he would go through with No Deal but with a heavy heart and tell the business owners and their employees who lose their livelihoods that it was worth it.

That's nice. I'm sure when they've found themselves out of work and struggling to get by utterly needlessly, possibly finding themselves homeless and with a strong chance of losing absolutely everything, including their pensions, they'll be comforted to know multi-millionaire Jeremy Hunt will feel about having done something he didn't need to do.

nicko31 · Jun 30, 2019

Kinky Gerbils said:
The media have let this go on and on for a couple of years, no one calls bullshit on this.

Even Liam Fox admits GATT A24 is a bit of a non starter, but you guessed it this is part of Boris's non plan

Ernest · Jun 30, 2019

A1X said:
So Jeremy Hunt said this morning he would go through with No Deal but with a heavy heart and tell the business owners and their employees who lose their livelihoods that it was worth it.

That's nice. I'm sure when they've found themselves out of work and struggling to get by utterly needlessly, possibly finding themselves homeless and with a strong chance of losing absolutely everything, including their pensions, they'll be comforted to know multi-millionaire Jeremy Hunt will feel about having done something he didn't need to do.

When they’re skint trying to claim universal credit and he asks them if it was worth it I wonder if they’ll agree

A1X · Jun 30, 2019

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