Return to the 70's

wellquickwoody · Aug 12, 2016

Any notion of sensible discussions with the RMT must have finally gone by now. They have now announced yet more strike action on the Virgin East Coast franchise.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37058849

Mick Cash even using the term 'scab' labour! Last night they were even unable to explain what they actually wanted from Eurostar, just quoting work/life balance. A bunch of cxxts who really think their opportunity has come with Corbyn and Momentum.

Ernest · Aug 12, 2016

Unlike the employers who want it back to the 1870's

brakespear · Aug 12, 2016

I wish I had a union like the RMT.

wellquickwoody · Aug 12, 2016

Ernest said:
Unlike the employers who want it back to the 1870's

What has actually changed in the last six months to cause 4/5/6 separate disputes, or is the RMT just flexing its muscles?

Ernest · Aug 12, 2016

wellquickwoody said:
What has actually changed in the last six months to cause 4/5/6 separate disputes, or is the RMT just flexing its muscles?

Ask the Employers who are reneging on agreements and seem surprised that the unions don't roll over and let them do it.

Just a suggestion but why not start just one thread and put all your Tory union bashing shite on it ? Perhaps you'll be happy when every single worker in the UK is on a zero hour contract, employed on agency conditions without sick and holiday pay and needing a food bank to feed their children ?

wellquickwoody · Aug 12, 2016

Ernest said:
Ask the Employers who are reneging on agreements

Which agreements are they reneging on?

Ernest · Aug 12, 2016

wellquickwoody said:
Which agreements are they reneging on?

Eurostar agreed a change in 2008 to the managers hours which wasn't implemented

SASTA agreed to take on 40 new Conductors in May, next month they decided to renege on that and SACK them all instead

wellquickwoody · Aug 12, 2016

Ernest said:
Eurostar agreed a change in 2008 to the managers hours which wasn't implemented

What were these changes exactly?

Ernest said:
SASTA agreed to take on 40 new Conductors in May, next month they decided to renege on that and SACK them all instead

When you say SACK, is that referring to the change in job title and role, without loss of jobs or pay?

Seriously, I am just trying to understand a little more.

Ernest · Aug 12, 2016

wellquickwoody said:
What were these changes exactly?

When you say SACK, is that referring to the change in job title and role, without loss of jobs or pay?

Seriously, I am just trying to understand a little more.

If you're genuinely interested www.rmt.org.uk and email the regional organisers with your questions and let us know their replies

Or as more likely you're just trolling thinking you're smart then you won't

The ball is in your court , if we don't see the responses then we know what you're doing

theboybilly · Aug 12, 2016

Ernest said:
Eurostar agreed a change in 2008 to the managers hours which wasn't implemented

SASTA agreed to take on 40 new Conductors in May, next month they decided to renege on that and SACK them all instead

Don't forget Southern got rid of the on-board revenue staff from the Gatwick Express (the whole premise of the GEX was there would ALWAYS be a train on a platform ready to board and that you would ALWAYS be able to buy a ticket on board (normally from a multi-lingual member of staff, a real help for foreign travellers). But no, Southern agreed to those job losses (some staff found barrier work but not all) and also got rid of the on-board catering (which they also did on Southern services) All the while still charging the premium fare for a downgraded service with the sole advantage over other Gatwick-bound services of not calling at Clapham Junction or East Croydon. Every time these job losses were announced the morale at the depot plummeted - nobody knew what horrible cunning plan they had up their sleeve. They have absolutely no notion of customer service. Gatwick Express routinely got the best customer satisfaction results and suffered very few cancellations until this woeful shower rocked up.

Ernest · Aug 12, 2016

theboybilly said:
Don't forget Southern got rid of the on-board revenue staff from the Gatwick Express (the whole premise of the GEX was there would ALWAYS be a train on a platform ready to board and that you would ALWAYS be able to buy a ticket on board (from normally a multi-lingual member of staff, a real help for foreign travellers). But no, Southern agreed to those job losses (some staff found barrier work but not all) and also got rid of the on-board catering (which they also did on Southern services) All the while still charging the premium fare for a downgraded service with the sole advantage over other Gatwick service of not calling at Clapham Junction or East Croydon. Every time these job losses were announced the morale at the depot plummeted - nobody knew what horrible cunning plan had up their sleeve. They have absolutely no notion of customer service. Gatwick Express routinely got the best customer satisfaction results and suffered very few cancellations until this woeful shower rocked up.

Worst thing that ever happened was SASTA getting their hands on Gatwick Expresses, it used to very well done with decent trains and a happy contented workforce throughout, SASTA take over and it was downhill ever since and not even a Poundland service let alone a standard service.

wellquickwoody · Aug 12, 2016

Ernest said:
If you're genuinely interested www.rmt.org.uk and email the regional organisers with your questions and let us know their replies

Or as more likely you're just trolling thinking you're smart then you won't

The ball is in your court , if we don't see the responses then we know what you're doing

Nice swerve Ernest! I really was just asking in the hope that you would be able to pinpoint exactly what the issues are. It appears you are not the railways guru that you seem so keen to come across as. Oh well......

bhanutz · Aug 12, 2016

Ernest said:
If you're genuinely interested www.rmt.org.uk and email the regional organisers with your questions and let us know their replies

Or as more likely you're just trolling thinking you're smart then you won't

The ball is in your court , if we don't see the responses then we know what you're doing

You have an attitude problem my friend!

Ernest · Aug 12, 2016

wellquickwoody said:
Nice swerve Ernest! I really was just asking in the hope that you would be able to pinpoint exactly what the issues are. It appears you are not the railways guru that you seem so keen to come across as. Oh well......

If you were really interested you'd engage with the people actually holding the strikes but as we all know you just prefer a bit of Labour or Union bashing or if you really get excited both.

Craven Wine · Aug 12, 2016

wellquickwoody said:
Nice swerve Ernest! I really was just asking in the hope that you would be able to pinpoint exactly what the issues are. It appears you are not the railways guru that you seem so keen to come across as. Oh well......

The following may answer some of your specific questions if your not trolling! Some folk seem to have short memories about about safety on the railways..Clapham etc

Just read this excellent posting on today's Guardian website in reply to an article by Christian Wolmar regarding the present dispute on Southern which I thought other members would find interesing:

"Part of the problem is that the government has an ideological move to get rid of guards on trains (and also remove platform dispatch staff and close ticket offices at the same time), in order to crush the RMT union - and also to push all liability (and prosecutions) for passenger accidents on the platform onto drivers (the one grade they can't get yet get rid of), in an attempt to weaken ASLEF morale, and also deflect any blame from managers . It appears to me that Southern management (as idiotic and useless as they are) are just doing the bidding of the Tories, and being used as a convenient scapegoat.

The guards' dispute is much much more complicated than is made out in the media, where it is described as "who presses a door close button". In reality the main issue is "who is liable for train dispatch from platforms" - which is a safety critical activity, which if not done properly, can lead to injury and death - and significant jail terms for rail staff, let alone dismissal and loss of pension. The Rail Accident Investigation Board dealt with 10 such serious dispatch incidents in the last 5 years, of which 8 were on trains where there was no onboard guard monitoring the dispatch, and the bulk were at unstaffed stations, with no platform staff either.

There are two court cases which have put the frighteners up all rail staff. Firstly the Liverpool James Street incident, where a young woman fell under a train at a platform and was killed. The guard involved got 5 years for manslaughter. Similarly there is another case going through the courts, again where a passenger fell under the train, whilst attempting to board as the doors were closing. The guard involved did not move the train, but instead followed all procedures to the letter, and was commended by his employers. However the CPS sought to charge him under a law from 1861, and the case is ongoing.

It is not surprising from these rulings, than drivers in ASLEF do not wish to take on the added responsibility of dispatching trains from platforms (particularly as now trains are much longer, stations and platforms much busier, and sentencing much higher than in the old days of British Rail when the original driver only schemes came in). Additionally on many DOO trains, platform staff are still responsible for the dispatch on busy stations, but the push is also to get rid of them, thus making the driver solely responsible for everything.

CCTV in the cab cannot provide the same view and field of vision that a guard stood at an appropriate position on the platform can provide. Equally if a driver is worried about drunks / late runners on a platform, he is not concentrating on the track ahead, which can and has led to signals being passed at red off platforms, and also puts track workers and users of station crossing at risk. The driver has no communication with passengers on the platform without leaving the cab, shutting the desk down and walking back to deal with them. However this presents a severe distraction risk, - not to mention a massive delay and there have been many cases where driver have got into alterations with drunks and then had a safety incident as their mind has not been on driving, and instead wound up abusive behaviour. A guard meanwhile can remain at the safest position on the train when dispatching to observe platform behaviour, rather than hoping that drunks move away when they return to the cab.

It seems to me that for these problems to be resolved the government need to stop their ideological war on railway staff and to stop blaming them for the mistakes that happen when they are put into rat traps such as the above situations. Removing the franchise from Southern won't necessarily change much, despite the incompetency of managers, since the Department for Transport want to push the de-staffing of railways across the board, and it is likely most of the same managers will just be shifted to any new franchise.

When Gatwick Express went DOO, the actual train dispatch was controlled by platform staff, not drivers, and the guards were redeployed as customer hosts / ticket examiners. They were soon dispensed with, as were the catering staff, and the move now is for the driver to dispatch longer trains with more doors, without station dispatch staff. Southern have said that their preferred method of dispatch is via CCTV - not platform staff, and that there will not be a guaranteed on board service host on trains. Looking at what happened with Gatwick Express, it is no surprise that the staff are extremely worried about their future - as are drivers for taking liability for what happens on platforms.

DOO will not improve anything for passengers, never will never has done. There will be no fare decreases, customer service staff onboard have been whittled down to zero on many operators that have gone DOO, and drivers are not in a position to deal with passengers effectively."

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk

Diablo · Aug 12, 2016

Ernest said:
If you were really interested you'd engage with the people actually holding the strikes but as we all know you just prefer a bit of Labour or Union bashing or if you really get excited both.

I`d call it "Lazy good for nothing" bashing....FFS get back to work..Work hard and sort this out.

wellquickwoody · Aug 12, 2016

Ernest said:
If you were really interested you'd engage with the people actually holding the strikes but as we all know you just prefer a bit of Labour or Union bashing or if you really get excited both.

You guys don't actually know what you want do you? You do not want to tell people what your problems actually are, just that people should listen to you more and take notice of you. What you really covet is the ability to disrupt and spoil the lives of others, how very sad.

beorhthelm · Aug 12, 2016

Ernest said:
If you're genuinely interested www.rmt.org.uk and email the regional organisers with your questions and let us know their replies

Or as more likely you're just trolling thinking you're smart then you won't

The ball is in your court , if we don't see the responses then we know what you're doing

according to RMT, 200 jobs at risk and unspecified safety and working conditions will change. RMT or other unions are rarely forthcoming in the detail of the dispute, for that matter neither are the employers. but the question was what has changed to bring about so many disputes, either a) there is coordinated efforts by multiple company's to upset their staff and unions or b) the RMT has decided to increase its responce to ongoing issues.

wellquickwoody · Aug 12, 2016

beorhthelm said:
but the question was what has changed to bring about so many disputes, either a) there is coordinated efforts by multiple company's to upset their staff and unions or b) the RMT has decided to increase its responce to ongoing issues.

I concur, and the more realistic answer would be the latter, but the RMT would tell us differently no doubt.

wellquickwoody · Aug 12, 2016

Craven Wine said:
The following may answer some of your specific questions if your not trolling! Some folk seem to have short memories about about safety on the railways..Clapham etc

Just read this excellent posting on today's Guardian website in reply to an article by Christian Wolmar regarding the present dispute on Southern which I thought other members would find interesing:

"Part of the problem is that the government has an ideological move to get rid of guards on trains (and also remove platform dispatch staff and close ticket offices at the same time), in order to crush the RMT union - and also to push all liability (and prosecutions) for passenger accidents on the platform onto drivers (the one grade they can't get yet get rid of), in an attempt to weaken ASLEF morale, and also deflect any blame from managers . It appears to me that Southern management (as idiotic and useless as they are) are just doing the bidding of the Tories, and being used as a convenient scapegoat.

The guards' dispute is much much more complicated than is made out in the media, where it is described as "who presses a door close button". In reality the main issue is "who is liable for train dispatch from platforms" - which is a safety critical activity, which if not done properly, can lead to injury and death - and significant jail terms for rail staff, let alone dismissal and loss of pension. The Rail Accident Investigation Board dealt with 10 such serious dispatch incidents in the last 5 years, of which 8 were on trains where there was no onboard guard monitoring the dispatch, and the bulk were at unstaffed stations, with no platform staff either.

There are two court cases which have put the frighteners up all rail staff. Firstly the Liverpool James Street incident, where a young woman fell under a train at a platform and was killed. The guard involved got 5 years for manslaughter. Similarly there is another case going through the courts, again where a passenger fell under the train, whilst attempting to board as the doors were closing. The guard involved did not move the train, but instead followed all procedures to the letter, and was commended by his employers. However the CPS sought to charge him under a law from 1861, and the case is ongoing.

It is not surprising from these rulings, than drivers in ASLEF do not wish to take on the added responsibility of dispatching trains from platforms (particularly as now trains are much longer, stations and platforms much busier, and sentencing much higher than in the old days of British Rail when the original driver only schemes came in). Additionally on many DOO trains, platform staff are still responsible for the dispatch on busy stations, but the push is also to get rid of them, thus making the driver solely responsible for everything.

CCTV in the cab cannot provide the same view and field of vision that a guard stood at an appropriate position on the platform can provide. Equally if a driver is worried about drunks / late runners on a platform, he is not concentrating on the track ahead, which can and has led to signals being passed at red off platforms, and also puts track workers and users of station crossing at risk. The driver has no communication with passengers on the platform without leaving the cab, shutting the desk down and walking back to deal with them. However this presents a severe distraction risk, - not to mention a massive delay and there have been many cases where driver have got into alterations with drunks and then had a safety incident as their mind has not been on driving, and instead wound up abusive behaviour. A guard meanwhile can remain at the safest position on the train when dispatching to observe platform behaviour, rather than hoping that drunks move away when they return to the cab.

It seems to me that for these problems to be resolved the government need to stop their ideological war on railway staff and to stop blaming them for the mistakes that happen when they are put into rat traps such as the above situations. Removing the franchise from Southern won't necessarily change much, despite the incompetency of managers, since the Department for Transport want to push the de-staffing of railways across the board, and it is likely most of the same managers will just be shifted to any new franchise.

When Gatwick Express went DOO, the actual train dispatch was controlled by platform staff, not drivers, and the guards were redeployed as customer hosts / ticket examiners. They were soon dispensed with, as were the catering staff, and the move now is for the driver to dispatch longer trains with more doors, without station dispatch staff. Southern have said that their preferred method of dispatch is via CCTV - not platform staff, and that there will not be a guaranteed on board service host on trains. Looking at what happened with Gatwick Express, it is no surprise that the staff are extremely worried about their future - as are drivers for taking liability for what happens on platforms.

DOO will not improve anything for passengers, never will never has done. There will be no fare decreases, customer service staff onboard have been whittled down to zero on many operators that have gone DOO, and drivers are not in a position to deal with passengers effectively."

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk

Thank you, makes some interesting reading. Just the other disputes to get some more understanding of now.

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