Working Law information required please..........

hitony · Nov 30, 2015

Last wednesday my boss, called me to one side and had a chat about how the site was going, he was not happy, we started properly on there 3 weeks ago today, so 11 working days ago (Mon 16th Nov) there have been good reasons why things have not gone hunky dory, staff not turning up etc etc (not that important to the situation) any way my new boss He started 5 weeks ago today, said to me last wednesday he was not happy with the way things were going etc etc, we had a chat and left it there (this was outside his car in the road) he has informed me today that last wednesdays conversation is now a verbal warning!

He at no time informed me during the convo outside his car it was a verbal warning till today, he told me today that he has informed the office it was a verbal warning, I was very surprised and said, you said nothing to me on wednesday about that? he said in a sarcastic way "Don't worry its above board and complies with ACAS standards" I said nothing..........end of that convo

Has he anything on his side in the way he has done this?

Just for clarification, I have read my Contract of Employment, which states that all disaplinerys will be dealt with in a certain way.....Meeting --- Notification --- someone with me if i want it etc etc etc...all the normal stuff (dont want to type out my contract as to much, but I'm sure you get the idea)........Thoughts?

Oh ive been there a year on 12th december!!

And up to now nothing at all in writing...though im expecting it after what he said......

Beach Hut · Nov 30, 2015

I have never worked in HR however if a company has a set of procedures and they are not followed then that cannot be classed as a verbal warning.

Bry Nylon · Nov 30, 2015

hitony said:
Last wednesday my boss, called me to one side and had a chat about how the site was going, he was not happy...

Interesting insight; I had no idea this was how Bozza manages the Moderating staff...

Seriously though, I hope nothing comes of this. I would have expected that verbal warnings have to fall within the standard protocols as you suggest, to have any weight.

Dorset Seagull · Nov 30, 2015

Used to get involved in this sort of thing a few years back and you certainly had to make it clear if you were giving a verbal warning. I think you can make people redundant in their first year without any real reason so not sure how you would stand for the next couple f weeks

happypig · Nov 30, 2015

hitony said:
"Don't worry its above board and complies with ACAS standards"

No it doesn't.

see https://www.gov.uk/taking-disciplinary-action

portlock seagull · Nov 30, 2015

But just so you know, and vast majority of people don't when trying to empathise with those who have been morally badly treated, is that a company can get rid of you if they want to with no good reason at all eg say they didn't like your tie. It's not criminal justice is so far as they have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. They don't. Just get rid of you and actually there's bugger all you can do. Where it becomes a problem for the employer is that getting rid of someone without good reason or due process can potentially be expensive. I say potentially deliberately because you the individual have to risk losing a tribunal and at least put up the costs of taking to. Many can't or don't, not just because of that but because of the stress.

I know this doesn't answer your question specifically but it's useful context. So always view as the company doesn't need good reason or to follow its own process. But then they don't need to is the bottom line, expensive gamble as they may be. Ow and also bear in mind that HR are there to protect the employer. Not the employee. They are most certainly not your friend or even close to eg impartial. Again, most people don't realise this until such time as too late. Many many people I know, decent quality workers like you, have sadly learnt these lessons through bitter first hand experience.

Lord Bracknell · Nov 30, 2015

I don't believe you can be given a disciplinary sanction without being advised in advance that this was a possible outcome of a formal meeting.

Having said that, I think you can be given an informal bollocking, but it can't count towards a cumulative assembly of offences that will lead to a more serious sanction.

Bry Nylon · Nov 30, 2015

Lord Bracknell said:
I don't believe you can be given a disciplinary sanction without being advised in advance that this was a possible outcome of a formal meeting.

Having said that, I think you can be given an informal bollocking, but it can't count towards a cumulative assembly of offences that will lead to a more serious sanction.

I love that. I wish it was written into formal Contracts of Employment.

"You [the Employee] cannot be given a disciplinary sanction without being advised in advance that this was a possible outcome of a formal meeting. However you can be given an informal bollocking."

My work place runs on the principle of "the informal bollocking" or TIB as I shall start calling it as of tomorrow.

hitony · Nov 30, 2015

Bry Nylon said:
Interesting insight; I had no idea this was how Bozza manages the Moderating staff...

Many think it's such an easy job, as you can see, it is not! he is such a hard taskmaster!

Thanks for the nice words, and I agree I can't see it standing, my probation was over nearly 2 months ago, I was not informed by HR but my contract said "UP to 10 months" its now very nearly 12 months and nothing said to say its not over.

My personal opinion is this............this guy is about 10 years younger than me (he is around 50+....i'm 60 for those that don't know) he comes from and still lives, west of
Ammanford (very much a west wales man and speaks welsh) again for those that don't know me, I have a very (what would be termed up here and even after 31 years of living in Wales) a VERY cockney accent..........quite simply, I don't think he likes me because I'm English, I met him exactly a week after he started, We shook hands and he said you must be Tony (surname) I replied, yes, pleased to meet you, straight away he said.........what part of London are you from..........I said Brighton........he ignored me......not the best start........i know he wil never admit to racism, but I do think he will persevere with the "I'm not good enough to do the job theme"

Vegas Seagull · Nov 30, 2015

Arrange a meeting with your boss's boss for 13th December and refuse to discuss anything with your boss prior to the meeting. Leave him in no doubt that you are not going to let him control the situation.

Lord Bracknell · Nov 30, 2015

Bry Nylon said:
I love that. I wish it was written into formal Contracts of Employment.

"You [the Employee] cannot be given a disciplinary sanction without being advised in advance that this was a possible outcome of a formal meeting. However you can be given an informal bollocking."

My work place runs on the principle of "the informal bollocking" or TIB as I shall start calling it as of tomorrow.

When I was a NALGO steward at East Sussex County Council, the union complained about the misuse of the disciplinary procedure by some Social Services managers. We met with councillors and made the point that an informal bollocking would be Ok, but a formal warning wasn't. The minutes of the meeting used the term "rollocking" and, since no-one had used that word, we wanted the councillors to agree to the minutes being accurate.

They agreed.

hitony · Nov 30, 2015

Vegas Seagull said:
Arrange a meeting with your boss's boss for 13th December and refuse to discuss anything with your boss prior to the meeting. Leave him in no doubt that you are not going to let him control the situation.

Good idea, thanks :thumbsup:

beorhthelm · Nov 30, 2015

unless its "normal" for the industry, say building sites or similar as you hint at, i'm fairly certain even an informal warning has to take place within the working envirnoment. ie not a conversation in the road.

sounds to me like he may not have the balls to properly take up a warning, possibly pressure from his boss, so wouldnt want to say he's being a complete arsehat here. best to have HR intervene to confirm what the warning was and whats at stake. dont assume them to be on boss's side, they love their procedures to be followed.

Beach Hut · Nov 30, 2015

Bry Nylon said:
My work place runs on the principle of "the informal bollocking" or TIB as I shall start calling it as of tomorrow.

At work we call it live bollock vision as everyone can watch it going on in an office

drew · Nov 30, 2015

portlock seagull said:
But just so you know, and vast majority of people don't when trying to empathise with those who have been morally badly treated, is that a company can get rid of you if they want to with no good reason at all eg say they didn't like your tie. It's not criminal justice is so far as they have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. They don't. Just get rid of you and actually there's bugger all you can do. Where it becomes a problem for the employer is that getting rid of someone without good reason or due process can potentially be expensive. I say potentially deliberately because you the individual have to risk losing a tribunal and at least put up the costs of taking to. Many can't or don't, not just because of that but because of the stress.

I know this doesn't answer your question specifically but it's useful context. So always view as the company doesn't need good reason or to follow its own process. But then they don't need to is the bottom line, expensive gamble as they may be. Ow and also bear in mind that HR are there to protect the employer. Not the employee. They are most certainly not your friend or even close to eg impartial. Again, most people don't realise this until such time as too late. Many many people I know, decent quality workers like you, have sadly learnt these lessons through bitter first hand experience.

Spot on with regard to HR although if you knew anything about the HR at BSUH you'd think they weren't even there to help the employer!!!!!

It's times like this though that membership of a union would be a godsend!

The Andy Naylor Fan Club · Nov 30, 2015

Have you subsequently asked him.....

If not, why not?

drew · Nov 30, 2015

Sounds like he knows that he is on dodgy ground but is trying to bully you because of your heritage!!! Your boss isn't Grant Shapps by any chance?

The other thing is, are you responsible for the problems. If not, then maybe a meeting with him and his line manager could set the record straight. That said, if your line manager has got it in for you on a personal basis it probably isn't going to improve until one of you has left!

GT49er · Nov 30, 2015

Write to the HR Manager, formally requesting that the record of a verbal warning be removed from your file. Explain that it was an informal meeting, and that at no time before or during the conversation were you told it was to constitute a verbal warning. Send a copy to the line manager too. Yes, it'll make him mad as a coyote, but he's a **** anyway, so that doesn't matter.

Request - in that same letter - a formal meeting, if (and only if) your line manager insists on going ahead with a verbal warning. Tell HR very clearly that you want it arranged through them, not just another informal chat, and that you are to be notified in advance so you can arrange for your representative to be present; no need to say who - just leave it open as a veiled threat.

That should ruffle them a bit - no guarantees, though - there never are. Ultimately, if they're a medium/large company, they can afford thousands of pounds for a super smarmy but very forceful barrister; you can't (I'm guessing).

The Mole · Nov 30, 2015

There are procedures that have to be followed before giving a warning. I think you are allowed to take someone else into any meeting with you.

The bad news is that a company can dismiss anyone fairly easily within two years. It used to be 12 months which is more than enough time for an employer to decide on whether an employee fits in or not. But this government decided this was far too biased towards the employee and changed it.

Good luck - I hope you do get this sorted - it sounds like you're new boss is a bully trying to make an early impression

ChickenBaltiPie · Nov 30, 2015

I will put it to you as simply as I possibly can...what was 'formal' about his warning? If that was a formal warning then what could possibly be considered an informal warning? Constructive feedback? A frown? No, that was not a formal warning regardless of who you work for, or where. Simple.

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