Sam Burgess - what a mess

Tooting Gull · Nov 5, 2015

Off back to league. Total fiasco.

His treatment reflects badly on everyone involved, especially Lancaster. Probably shouldn't have been in World Cup squad, but would have been a great union player with more time. Made a scapegoat for matches he should never have been playing in. League's gain, union's loss.

Vegas Seagull · Nov 5, 2015

Has Lancaster been bombed out yet?

Worthingite · Nov 5, 2015

Not at all shocked but very disappointed in the RFU, they are responsible for the utter omnishambles that this World Cup has provided as far as the national side has gone. They need to strip the whole lot away, get rid of the old boys club mentality, and rid themselves of stunts like the Burgess fiasco.

Simster · Nov 5, 2015

How do we know he'd have been a "great" union player? He was constantly caught out of position in union. And Lancaster couldn't look any worse than he already does - miserable failure with the biggest resource pool by far. Dismal effort all round from the posh pillocks running the game in England.

Guinness Boy · Nov 5, 2015

Barely a week since Mike Ford went on the Radio 4 Today programme and assured the world he'd be staying with Bath too.

Tooting Gull · Nov 5, 2015

Simster said:
How do we know he'd have been a "great" union player? He was constantly caught out of position in union. And Lancaster couldn't look any worse than he already does - miserable failure with the biggest resource pool by far. Dismal effort all round from the posh pillocks running the game in England.

We don't know it - but he'd only played it for months. Most of the rest have played it for 20 years. You just don't pick up that sort of knowledge overnight. I actually think this was far bigger cock-up and more damaging to Lancaster than not getting out of the pool. Wales and Australia are good teams.

Gwylan · Nov 5, 2015

Simster said:
How do we know he'd have been a "great" union player? He was constantly caught out of position in union. And Lancaster couldn't look any worse than he already does - miserable failure with the biggest resource pool by far. Dismal effort all round from the posh pillocks running the game in England.

He was caught out of position because he's so new to union but he probably had the skill-set to make it. But he should never have been in the squad in the first place. Just because Folau and SBW can make the switch with ease, it doesn't mean everyone can.

What's more concerning for English rugby is what happens next. Simon Holliday was quoted this morning as saying that he wanted another body running the team. So, like football, there'd be three organisations in charge of rugby: one for the national teams, one for the clubs and one for the grassroots.

New Zealand has one body and a co-ordinated approach so the schools and clubs are working together with one aim - to make the national team the best it could be. But England have rejected that idea: what does New Zealand know about rugby, eh?

Tooting Gull · Nov 5, 2015

Seems to be unravelling big time. Great quotes from Armitage yesterday on the 'no French players' farce. He was particularly pissed off with England players in the squad mouthing off that he shouldn't be allowed to play, basically protecting their own places rather than wanting the best options available for the national side.

Simster · Nov 5, 2015

I'm sure we'll get the "football could learn a lot from rugby" cliches trotted out by the time the Six Nations come round, belying the fact that the goons running rugby have massively underachieved compared to football authorities and players in this country.

el punal · Nov 5, 2015

Vegas Seagull said:
Has Lancaster been bombed out yet?

You mean shot down.

el punal · Nov 5, 2015

Tooting Gull said:
We don't know it - but he'd only played it for months. Most of the rest have played it for 20 years. You just don't pick up that sort of knowledge overnight. I actually think this was far bigger cock-up and more damaging to Lancaster than not getting out of the pool. Wales and Australia are good teams.

More worryingly was Lancaster "influenced" by Andy Farrell? This would say a lot about England's poor World Cup.

Tooting Gull · Nov 5, 2015

Simster said:
I'm sure we'll get the "football could learn a lot from rugby" cliches trotted out by the time the Six Nations come round, belying the fact that the goons running rugby have massively underachieved compared to football authorities and players in this country.

One thing that has surely gone at this World Cup is the whole superiority thing over respect for the ref. After the massively over the top stuff Dawson and Hastings said about Joubert.

Pavilionaire · Nov 5, 2015

Simster said:
I'm sure we'll get the "football could learn a lot from rugby" cliches trotted out by the time the Six Nations come round, belying the fact that the goons running rugby have massively underachieved compared to football authorities and players in this country.

But football CAN learn a lot from rugby. Compare the success of the 2015 World Cup event to the farce unfolding around Russia / Qatar and the cynicism surrounding recent football World Cups, look at the sportsmanship on display. When has any footballer made such a magnanimous gesture as Sonny Bill Williams giving his winner's medal away to that child?

The England rugby team may have under-achieved but we put on a damn good event and the sport globally is in good health.

A better coach, a better captain and getting rid of the selection exclusion policy for the likes of Steffan Armitage will surely soon see English rugby in a better place.

Simster · Nov 5, 2015

Yes but rugby could learn a lot from football too - the way football has reached out to developing nations in particular. The old boys network in rugby on the other hand, gave NZ the World Cup in 2011 instead of Japan, and pay lip service to developing the game away from it's heartlands. Look at how hard Argentina (now the world's 5th or 6th best team) had to fight to get into a major international tournament, and even now have just got ONE international representative in club rugby along with Japan.

And as Tooting says, it's all very easy to criticise football players and refs because they and their decisions are so often in the public eye, but one big game is all it took for ex pros to shamefully hound an otherwise well respected referee in the press and on TV.

And the less said about the English RU and it's performance over 2 decades given the resources, the better.

BensGrandad · Nov 5, 2015

The only thing I would take from rugby is the finishing when the ball is out if play. I thought about their yellow card sin bin rule but it wouldnt work in football as in many games it would finish up with 8 v 7 for a lot of the time and with a number of refs 7 v 11.

Gwylan · Nov 5, 2015

Tooting Gull said:
One thing that has surely gone at this World Cup is the whole superiority thing over respect for the ref. After the massively over the top stuff Dawson and Hastings said about Joubert.

Completely disagree with this. In the games themselves, the refs continued to be treated with respect. Dawson and Hastings are both prize cocks so taking anything they say seriously would be like treating the witterings of Savage and Claridge as oracle-like pronouncements. What is worrying is the statement from the IRB saying that Joubert got it wrong, that's something that needs to be looked at. I suspect the IRB are already regretting that statement.

But, as Simster says, the rugby authorities have done pretty poorly by the Tier 2 teams. The lack of matches is one thing, the short turnarounds was another - Japan had four days after the SA game and then played a rested Scotland. That was disgraceful.

mikeyjh · Nov 5, 2015

Tooting Gull said:
Off back to league. Total fiasco.

His treatment reflects badly on everyone involved, especially Lancaster. Probably shouldn't have been in World Cup squad, but would have been a great union player with more time. Made a scapegoat for matches he should never have been playing in. League's gain, union's loss.

I couldn't agree more, I am gutted, he could have been great. RFU, Coaching team, MEDIA, take a long hard look.....

Bevendean Hillbilly · Nov 5, 2015

Rugby is a mystery to me. I just don't get the attraction. Bunch of heavily muscled men grappling with each other. Dull posh dull.

Tooting Gull · Nov 5, 2015

Gwylan said:
Completely disagree with this. In the games themselves, the refs continued to be treated with respect. Dawson and Hastings are both prize cocks so taking anything they say seriously would be like treating the witterings of Savage and Claridge as oracle-like pronouncements. What is worrying is the statement from the IRB saying that Joubert got it wrong, that's something that needs to be looked at. I suspect the IRB are already regretting that statement.

But, as Simster says, the rugby authorities have done pretty poorly by the Tier 2 teams. The lack of matches is one thing, the short turnarounds was another - Japan had four days after the SA game and then played a rested Scotland. That was disgraceful.

They are prize cocks, but (unfortunately) prize cocks with a platform. I'm sure there are a lot of rugby fans hoping that they haven't let the sport down and altered attitudes, but I fear they have. That aside, totally agree with the other stuff on needless public hanging of Joubert by IRB, and Tier 2 sides

nwgull · Nov 5, 2015

Tooting Gull said:
One thing that has surely gone at this World Cup is the whole superiority thing over respect for the ref. After the massively over the top stuff Dawson and Hastings said about Joubert.

Apart from the fact that they're commentators and are well within their rights to question the way a game is reffed, they were complaining because he ran from the pitch without even stopping to shake the captains' hands, which was disrespectful, and I thought that they were spot on. The Scots players were class in the way that they acted after the end of that game: not one of them criticised the ref in the interviews immediately after, despite a couple of dodgy decisions that affected the result.

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