Autism - A personal rant.

BadFish · Oct 30, 2015

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
To be fair to Hastings, I think the problem here is the lack of support and guidance for those on the front line.

I was asked to write a UCAS reference for a student, who had just got a PhD and wanted to study medicine. This guy is incredibly smart, but has dyslexia and dyspraxia, and has issues over boundaries (effing off in front of undergraduates, for example). His PhD supervisor refused to write a reference. I agreed to do so and the lad got an interview. Unfortunately he blew the interview. I think he would make a good doctor (medic) but he doesn't fit the stereotype. Maybe the boy who caused disruption on the bus would be fine with a gun. Frankly it is not for me to judge because I don't have the skill set. Yet I was asked to judge in the case of the student applying for med school. None of this is 'obvious' but I am hopeful we are making strides, and that people will get a fair crack, and not be dismissed because of aspectes of themselves that may be disconcerting. Consider, Winston Churchill would have not got a look in ten years ago, in any position of responsibility, had his depression been disclosed. These days that would be discriminatory. And in the past it would have been kept hidden. We have progress, but it is difficult.

I agree here and to be honest the dealings I have had with the school show some excellent progress. I think the teacher needs more support (and he is not alone there) and from my discussion with him and the other teacher it is clear that there are some things that they just do not get. I don't expect them to as there is too much to get and it is nigh on impossible to understand much of what these kids see and understand.

My post was written in anger and frustration and was an exercise in venting some of that. What has come since is the learning of many lessons and some things being put into place to ensure that this kind of thing is less likely to happen again.

Like you say progress is definitely happening and although it is sometimes frustratingly slow it should be acknowledged that all concerned are doing their best for my boy.

Hastings gull · Oct 30, 2015

BadFish said:
As i pointed out, in my opinion your stand point on this matter is marred by your decision a couple of months ago to use my son's autism to have a pop at me on a thread entirely unrelated. you were told at the time that you were out of line by other posters and yet chose to continue trying to justify your actions instead of apologizing. As I, and others have pointed out your pointed out your points are valid in the context of this thread and i am not trying to stop you expressing them. Personally though, having experienced your willingness to use his autism in the way you did i am skeptical about your ability to offer the balance you profess to.

I really shouldn't have bought it up again and for that i apologise, as ever we will not agree so i will do the next best thing and agree to disagree and leave it at that.

To be quite frank, I had totally forgotten that and had not realised this is what you were referring to. By the way, I did say that it was not right and did NOT continue, as you say. You may be sceptical - that is your right, but then your posts have repeatedly demonstrated that you are sceptical regarding anyone who disagrees with you - recall your disgraceful comments about other's lack of compassion and that you were so decent and well-meaning? Given this and your constant attempt to needle people on another thread, I am loathe to take your word for everything, and thus this might understandably affect my balance in your case -not regarding the general problem of autism, where I would most certainly take every case on its merits, or in some cases otherwise.
By the way, I attended a meeting with a school and disgruntled parents last week, where the parents claimed various conditions, and yet despite frequent hospital visits, no medical practitioner has ever backed it up, so the school would not provide anything additional. Indeed under these circumstances, they would be most unwise to. The parents, did, predictably, blame the school for his poor behaviour, and refused to take any responsibility themselves. It is, as you know, a very difficult area and unfortunately some parents can be quite irrational, either in their understandable desire to seek help for their child, or to cover up their own failings. I am NOT saying for one moment that you fall into this category - simply reiterating that, as a general principle, it is easy to attach blame to some staff, which might not be entirely warranted.
To be fair you did accept that you should not have brought it up, and I accept that I too should not have written what I did.

KZNSeagull · Oct 30, 2015

Hastings gull said:
To be quite frank, I had totally forgotten that and had not realised this is what you were referring to. By the way, I did say that it was not right and did NOT continue, as you say. You may be sceptical - that is your right, but then your posts have repeatedly demonstrated that you are sceptical regarding anyone who disagrees with you - recall your disgraceful comments about other's lack of compassion and that you were so decent and well-meaning? Given this and your constant attempt to needle people on another thread, I am loathe to take your word for everything, and thus this might understandably affect my balance in your case -not regarding the general problem of autism, where I would most certainly take every case on its merits, or in some cases otherwise.
By the way, I attended a meeting with a school and disgruntled parents last week, where the parents claimed various conditions, and yet despite frequent hospital visits, no medical practitioner has ever backed it up, so the school would not provide anything additional. Indeed under these circumstances, they would be most unwise to. The parents, did, predictably, blame the school for his poor behaviour, and refused to take any responsibility themselves. It is, as you know, a very difficult area and unfortunately some parents can be quite irrational, either in their understandable desire to seek help for their child, or to cover up their own failings. I am NOT saying for one moment that you fall into this category - simply reiterating that, as a general principle, it is easy to attach blame to some staff, which might not be entirely warranted.
To be fair you did accept that you should not have brought it up, and I accept that I too should not have written what I did.

A couple of questions if I may:

Where you say "regarding the general problem of autism, where I would most certainly take every case on its merits, or in some cases otherwise" - why the "in some cases otherwise"?

You say "indeed under these circumstances, they would be most unwise to". Do these children have issues, diagnosed or not? If so, is it not incumbent on the school to try and resolve these issues whatever they may be, particularly if that child is being disruptive to other pupils?

And a more general thing - have you as a teacher noticed an increase in the number of statements of special needs that a school is asked to deal with? If so, do you believe that adequate provision is made for those children?

Hastings gull · Oct 30, 2015

KZNSeagull said:
A couple of questions if I may:

Where you say "regarding the general problem of autism, where I would most certainly take every case on its merits, or in some cases otherwise" - why the "in some cases otherwise"?

You say "indeed under these circumstances, they would be most unwise to". Do these children have issues, diagnosed or not? If so, is it not incumbent on the school to try and resolve these issues whatever they may be, particularly if that child is being disruptive to other pupils?

And a more general thing - have you as a teacher noticed an increase in the number of statements of special needs that a school is asked to deal with? If so, do you believe that adequate provision is made for those children?

Of course you may! Have you been following the whole theme? It doesn't matter if you have not, but I responded to an earlier post that claimed that some parents will quickly jump on the idea of a "condition" as a way of excusing their child's poor behaviour and their dreadful upbringing. Look at my post about last week's meeting.

Your second question - if no one in the medical profession has diagnosed a particular condition, then the school would be unwise to treat the child as if they have that condition -does that not make sense? Of course it is incumbent on the school to resolve the issues of poor behaviour irrespective of any diagnosis -whoever says that that is not the case? - and why on earth would you seem to be suggesting that was not the case. The child in question was expelled for persistent serious disruption. I should know as I had to make 4 copies of everything that the school had logged down - it came to over 700 sheets. Much of the recording was where the school had made provision after provision in terms of extra adult supervision in an attempt to change behaviour. In my experience, schools in general show incredible patience in dealing with disruptive children until it eventually comes to the stage when it can take no more as the progress of other children really starts to be affected, and consequent parental complaints multiply.

Yes, there do seem to be more children these days with statements, and I really don't know why. As to whether schools deal with them effectively - this is very hard to assess. But as a general rule, I would say that schools certainly do try to make every effort. Of course there might be exceptions and parents who will claim otherwise.

KZNSeagull · Oct 30, 2015

Hastings gull said:
Of course you may! Have you been following the whole theme? It doesn't matter if you have not, but I responded to an earlier post that claimed that some parents will quickly jump on the idea of a "condition" as a way of excusing their child's poor behaviour and their dreadful upbringing. Look at my post about last week's meeting.

Your second question - if no one in the medical profession has diagnosed a particular condition, then the school would be unwise to treat the child as if they have that condition -does that not make sense? Of course it is incumbent on the school to resolve the issues of poor behaviour irrespective of any diagnosis -whoever says that that is not the case? - and why on earth would you seem to be suggesting that was not the case. The child in question was expelled for persistent serious disruption. I should know as I had to make 4 copies of everything that the school had logged down - it came to over 700 sheets. Much of the recording was where the school had made provision after provision in terms of extra adult supervision in an attempt to change behaviour. In my experience, schools in general show incredible patience in dealing with disruptive children until it eventually comes to the stage when it can take no more as the progress of other children really starts to be affected, and consequent parental complaints multiply.

Yes, there do seem to be more children these days with statements, and I really don't know why. As to whether schools deal with them effectively - this is very hard to assess. But as a general rule, I would say that schools certainly do try to make every effort. Of course there might be exceptions and parents who will claim otherwise.

I have been following, yes.

Re your first paragraph - your initial post could be construed (incorrectly, now that you have clarified the point), that you perhaps did not agree with some cases of autism (ie, they had been misdiagnosed). A parent claiming that a child has a certain condition is not a diagnosis, I totally and utterly agree.

Re paragraph 2 - yes of course that makes sense, but it should not stop the school from trying to get to the bottom of why that particular child may be disruptive or whatever. I was not necessarily suggesting that the school was ignoring them, but again your initial post could have been interpreted that because there was not a diagnosis of a condition, there was nothing the school could do, hence why I asked the question. But you have clarified that this is not the case so all is fine there.

In summary then, the school will help the child as much as possible irrespective of whether they have a diagnosis of a condition and whether or not the child has supportive parents etc. Good!

I would expect an increase in statements due to the policy of inclusive education and the increase of diagnosis of conditions such as autism, particularly high-functioning autism. Yes, of course it is down to each school as to how they are dealt with and accommodated and it is also down to the parents to guide and assist the school where they can. It is very encouraging to me that more are being included in mainstream education - this was certainly not the case when my son was diagnosed, hence why I asked the question. Sadly though, many parents wash their hands of the issue and expect the school/authorities to do everything for them, which is of course ridiculous. The other issue with autism is of course the very high divorce rate where an autistic child is involved, which of course does not help matters, but that is another issue.

Thanks for clarifying.

Steve.S · Oct 30, 2015

Hastings gull said:
Of course you may! Have you been following the whole theme? It doesn't matter if you have not, but I responded to an earlier post that claimed that some parents will quickly jump on the idea of a "condition" as a way of excusing their child's poor behaviour and their dreadful upbringing. Look at my post about last week's meeting.

Your second question - if no one in the medical profession has diagnosed a particular condition, then the school would be unwise to treat the child as if they have that condition -does that not make sense? Of course it is incumbent on the school to resolve the issues of poor behaviour irrespective of any diagnosis -whoever says that that is not the case? - and why on earth would you seem to be suggesting that was not the case. The child in question was expelled for persistent serious disruption. I should know as I had to make 4 copies of everything that the school had logged down - it came to over 700 sheets. Much of the recording was where the school had made provision after provision in terms of extra adult supervision in an attempt to change behaviour. In my experience, schools in general show incredible patience in dealing with disruptive children until it eventually comes to the stage when it can take no more as the progress of other children really starts to be affected, and consequent parental complaints multiply.

Yes, there do seem to be more children these days with statements, and I really don't know why. As to whether schools deal with them effectively - this is very hard to assess. But as a general rule, I would say that schools certainly do try to make every effort. Of course there might be exceptions and parents who will claim otherwise.

I agree with this, but one of the problems is getting a statement for a child. There seems to be a reluctance to give children statements these days, the main reason being money. Once a child has a statement, that brings extra funding for that child that allows a school to employ an INA. Local authorities seem to make the process difficult and time consuming to a point where some children are almost at the end of primary school before getting a statement. I feel sorry for teachers as they have to deal with 34 children all with different needs and a different levels in their abilities. Add to that up to 68 parents of these children all with different ideas on how their child and the other children in the class should be treated and in some cases the mum and dad are not always in agreement with each other. Teachers are having to be social workers as well as trying to teach.

emphyrian · Oct 30, 2015

I run a scout troop in Brighton and years ago I helped out on a district run badge course. During the event I ha a run in with a very rude young lad who when asked to help tidy up told me to f@@@ off. Needless to say I got annoyed and said how glad I was that I didn't have a scout like that in my troop. Two months later who shows up at my HQ, yep, same young lad and his mum. She informed me that he had now been kicked out of 4 troops in the area and he would like to join my troop. I explained the situation I had previously had with her son and that I would take him on but I needed to understand why he got like he did. She then informed me of his autism and we sat with the young lad and I went through what I understood (my wife is a SEN co-ordinator) and also I needed to know from him what he could and couldn't do. By the time he left scouts he had become my SPL (Senior Patrol Leader, so effectively in charge of the scouts when a leader isn't in the room) and also achieved his chief scout gold award. We also then had another 4 autistic young people turn up because of how we helped and didn't turn them away. I feel that parents should not be embarrassed by the autism that the child has got and to find what the child is good at and cant do and work around that.

KZNSeagull · Oct 30, 2015

Steve.S said:
I agree with this, but one of the problems is getting a statement for a child. There seems to be a reluctance to give children statements these days, the main reason being money. Once a child has a statement, that brings extra funding for that child that allows a school to employ an INA. Local authorities seem to make the process difficult and time consuming to a point where some children are almost at the end of primary school before getting a statement. I feel sorry for teachers as they have to deal with 34 children all with different needs and a different levels in their abilities. Add to that up to 68 parents of these children all with different ideas on how their child and the other children in the class should be treated and in some cases the mum and dad are not always in agreement with each other. Teachers are having to be social workers as well as trying to teach.

If this is the case, sounds like things have not moved on then from when my son was diagnosed in 2003. They were reluctant to give a statement, but were seemingly quite happy to chuck him into a mainstream school and let the teacher sort it out. This is a very poor attitude and rather short-sighted imo and my son would have been completely lost in that environment without assistance.

Hastings gull · Oct 30, 2015

KZNSeagull said:
I have been following, yes.

Re your first paragraph - your initial post could be construed (incorrectly, now that you have clarified the point), that you perhaps did not agree with some cases of autism (ie, they had been misdiagnosed). A parent claiming that a child has a certain condition is not a diagnosis, I totally and utterly agree.

Re paragraph 2 - yes of course that makes sense, but it should not stop the school from trying to get to the bottom of why that particular child may be disruptive or whatever. I was not necessarily suggesting that the school was ignoring them, but again your initial post could have been interpreted that because there was not a diagnosis of a condition, there was nothing the school could do, hence why I asked the question. But you have clarified that this is not the case so all is fine there.

In summary then, the school will help the child as much as possible irrespective of whether they have a diagnosis of a condition and whether or not the child has supportive parents etc. Good!

I would expect an increase in statements due to the policy of inclusive education and the increase of diagnosis of conditions such as autism, particularly high-functioning autism. Yes, of course it is down to each school as to how they are dealt with and accommodated and it is also down to the parents to guide and assist the school where they can. It is very encouraging to me that more are being included in mainstream education - this was certainly not the case when my son was diagnosed, hence why I asked the question. Sadly though, many parents wash their hands of the issue and expect the school/authorities to do everything for them, which is of course ridiculous. The other issue with autism is of course the very high divorce rate where an autistic child is involved, which of course does not help matters, but that is another issue.

Thanks for clarifying.

Thanks for this. I thought about the reasons after I posted my reply to you. The break-up in marriages/relationships has certainly had a detrimental effect and the fact that there seems to be more statements around, encourages other parents to fight for funding for their child. I am not saying that this is wrong, just that this is inevitable, I suppose. Yes, see your point totally about a divorce's effect on such kids.

Hastings gull · Oct 30, 2015

Steve.S said:
I agree with this, but one of the problems is getting a statement for a child. There seems to be a reluctance to give children statements these days, the main reason being money. Once a child has a statement, that brings extra funding for that child that allows a school to employ an INA. Local authorities seem to make the process difficult and time consuming to a point where some children are almost at the end of primary school before getting a statement. I feel sorry for teachers as they have to deal with 34 children all with different needs and a different levels in their abilities. Add to that up to 68 parents of these children all with different ideas on how their child and the other children in the class should be treated and in some cases the mum and dad are not always in agreement with each other. Teachers are having to be social workers as well as trying to teach.

Absolutely. LAs try to avoid the costs and dragging the process out is very much in their interests. You are quite right in that teachers do also have to be social workers now and there are huge pressures on them.

AmexRuislip · Apr 30, 2019

Albions inclusion room for the autistic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...sion-room-at-brighton-and-hove-albion-stadium

Well done BHAFC :clap:

Cadiz Seagull · Apr 30, 2019

AmexRuislip said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...sion-room-at-brighton-and-hove-albion-stadium

Well done BHAFC

There's a lot wrong with our club.

But, bugger me, there's a Hell of a lot more right with it.

AmexRuislip · Apr 30, 2019

Cadiz Seagull said:
There's a lot wrong with our club.

But, bugger me, there's a Hell of a lot more right with it.

A true word to be said.
Hows life in Bexhill?

Peter Ward · Apr 30, 2019

This is an excellent thread culminating in a great initiative by the Albion. My son has ADD (that's ADHD - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder but without the hyper-activity) and struggles in school to focus. Yesterday, after getting into trouble for not paying attention and disobeying instructions his TA told me that 'its down to him, its all about the choices he makes'. But its not. He doesn't choose to get continuously distracted by what's happening around him. Because he can just about manage most of the time in school, he gets very little additional support and is regarded a a naughty child alot of the time. Kids with similar conditions up and down the country are permanently excluded from their mainstream schools. With the severe austerity cutbacks to local authority and health budgets there simply is no funding for the right kind of extra education support. The Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services have been so cutback to the bone that now their thresholds are so high that children and young people cannot get access to a service unless they are in acute situations - that is - self harming or almost suicidal.

So its great to see the Albion taking the lead in this.

darkwolf666 · Apr 30, 2019

Peter Ward said:
This is an excellent thread culminating in a great initiative by the Albion. My son has ADD (that's ADHD - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder but without the hyper-activity) and struggles in school to focus. Yesterday, after getting into trouble for not paying attention and disobeying instructions his TA told me that 'its down to him, its all about the choices he makes'. But its not. He doesn't choose to get continuously distracted by what's happening around him. Because he can just about manage most of the time in school, he gets very little additional support and is regarded a a naughty child alot of the time. Kids with similar conditions up and down the country are permanently excluded from their mainstream schools. With the severe austerity cutbacks to local authority and health budgets there simply is no funding for the right kind of extra education support. The Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services have been so cutback to the bone that now their thresholds are so high that children and young people cannot get access to a service unless they are in acute situations - that is - self harming or almost suicidal.

So its great to see the Albion taking the lead in this.

My wife and I care for 3 children, all of which have varying degrees of disability, physical and mental. We have had experience of CAMHS and have been shocked by how little they can offer to children who aren't at the severe end of needs.
You could have almost heard the sigh of disappointment when we said the children didn't self harm, as that is pretty much the first benchmark to get you noticed. The ironic thing is when one of the children did have period of self harm CAMHS put it down to peer pressure!

Triggaaar · Apr 30, 2019

BadFish said:
Then he has the brass neck to tell my boy that he doesn't see things from other people's perspective, no he ****ing can't because he is autistic

I see this is an old thread, I hope things have improved since then.

Return of the Rev · Apr 30, 2019

BadFish said:
My 10 year old has high functioning autism (aspergers), I know that a few people on her have kids in the same boat.

Once again a minor incident on the bus back from an excursion yesterday was allowed to escalate into a massive melt down in front of kids and parents because his teacher didn't make any allowances for his condition. We have had so many conversation about how to deal with him and explained how he sees the world (as best we can) but he just doesn't seem to take any of it on board. Then he has the brass neck to tell my boy that he doesn't see things from other people's perspective, no he ****ing can't because he is autistic, he is learning that stuff slowly.

Another teacher grabbed him back at the school and sent him off into a full meltdown which my wife was trying to deal with while the two teachers were telling all about what had happened.

I suppose some people get it and some people don't and we are just going to have to deal with this shit time after time. Because it is not a obvious or noticeable disability some people seem to dismiss it and not bother to deal with it. Like I said he whole thing could have been nipped in the bud and dealt with without upsetting anyone. My boy only really began to understand what he did wrong once he was calm and I carefully explained it to him. He has got in trouble and a big scene has been caused because he cannot understand or effectively deal with social situation properly. This ****ing shit wouldn't happen if he couldn't read or do maths properly.

Apologies for the rant,

Cheers

BF

Sad to hear this but things will get better, we had a lady with autism living with us for 9 years and her school days were very difficult for her getting expelled twice, some schools are better than others so hopefully senior school will provide alot more support,. Out of interest are you local to Brighton and Hove?

Bevendean Hillbilly · Apr 30, 2019

BadFish said:
Cheers fellas, it is a constant battle and as you say teachers should be up with this stuff. Many of us are, I work at the school and on the whole we are on top of things. This individual just seems to not get it or not be prepared to make changes in his approach. Will be an interesting week next week but right now I am going surfing

Not local rev I am in Australia.

It's a bitch ain't it

vegster · Apr 30, 2019

Peter Ward said:
This is an excellent thread culminating in a great initiative by the Albion. My son has ADD (that's ADHD - Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder but without the hyper-activity) and struggles in school to focus. Yesterday, after getting into trouble for not paying attention and disobeying instructions his TA told me that 'its down to him, its all about the choices he makes'. But its not. He doesn't choose to get continuously distracted by what's happening around him. Because he can just about manage most of the time in school, he gets very little additional support and is regarded a a naughty child alot of the time. Kids with similar conditions up and down the country are permanently excluded from their mainstream schools. With the severe austerity cutbacks to local authority and health budgets there simply is no funding for the right kind of extra education support. The Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services have been so cutback to the bone that now their thresholds are so high that children and young people cannot get access to a service unless they are in acute situations - that is - self harming or almost suicidal.

So its great to see the Albion taking the lead in this.

Be grateful hat your son actually has a TA in class, they are rare and getting rarer all the time. Lots of in class support for those with additional needs are being phased out on cost grounds. At Mrs V's school she knows two of her class should be assessed for Special Needs support, the school can't/won't do the assessment as if they are found to need additional support, there isn't any money in the budget for it.

Questions · Apr 30, 2019

My daughter has had to educate all the senior management as to the autism spectrum since even before she went to key stage one leadership. They haven’t a clue.

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