Why are we not training enough of our own?

Honky Tonx · Aug 27, 2015

I've just been watching the BBC news, whilst doing the ironing, and something worries me. It's claimed that the NHS and care homes need to rely on immigrants to make up the work force. Why on earth can't the UK provide it's own workers? Please explain.

Hampster Gull · Aug 27, 2015

It could with proper forsight and the correct incentives

Bakero · Aug 27, 2015

Because the government would rather let other countries pay for their citizens educations then steal them.

Would you like to do my ironing too?

sir albion · Aug 27, 2015

Simple really...
Nurses go to uni for 5 years and start at 21k,but saying that we have 40,000 nurses on the waiting list.The jobs being advertised have been advertised to immigrants abroad and not here.
This is costing the NHS a fortune and another reason why it's crumbling...no need to go abroad.

GingerBeerMan · Aug 27, 2015

Doesn't pay enough and long hours. Care homes and NHS staff work ridiculously long hours and get a pretty shit wage.

Westdene Wonder · Aug 27, 2015

Nurses wanting to return to hospital work requiring training to bring them up to date are not being accepted,NHS then say due to shortages they have to bring in those from abroad,it does not make sense

Honky Tonx · Aug 27, 2015

Bakero said:
Because the government would rather let other countries pay for their citizens educations then steal them.

Would you like to do my ironing too?

I do the ironing naked, still interested??

Bakero · Aug 27, 2015

Honky Tonx said:
I do the ironing naked, still interested??

Sure, I wasn't planning on watching anyway.

Thunder Bolt · Aug 27, 2015

There are not enough training places being provided here, so the NHS employs qualified nurses who come in.

Care work is notoriously low paid, so migrant workers take the jobs.

Hastings gull · Aug 27, 2015

Honky Tonx said:
I've just been watching the BBC news, whilst doing the ironing, and something worries me. It's claimed that the NHS and care homes need to rely on immigrants to make up the work force. Why on earth can't the UK provide it's own workers? Please explain.

Perhaps someone in the NHS can explain better than I ?I am sure that I read that the nurses all now have to have a degree which makes them expensive to employ. Not that there is anything wrong with them having a degree, but in days gone by, was not there a second tier in terms of expertise, and these nurses would have been cheaper, thus reducing the necessity to recruit abroad to the same extent?

Thunder Bolt · Aug 27, 2015

Hastings gull said:
Perhaps someone in the NHS can explain better than I ?I am sure that I read that the nurses all now have to have a degree which makes them expensive to employ. Not that there is anything wrong with them having a degree, but in days gone by, was not there a second tier in terms of expertise, and these nurses would have been cheaper, thus reducing the necessity to recruit abroad to the same extent?

It used to be SRN which was a three year course, and needed an educational standard ie 5 O levels before starting. The other tier was SEN and no qualifications needed, for a two year course.
There is a second tier called healthcare workers, but I'm not sure what training they get now.

Honky Tonx · Aug 27, 2015

Hastings gull said:
Perhaps someone in the NHS can explain better than I ?I am sure that I read that the nurses all now have to have a degree which makes them expensive to employ. Not that there is anything wrong with them having a degree, but in days gone by, was not there a second tier in terms of expertise, and these nurses would have been cheaper, thus reducing the necessity to recruit abroad to the same extent?

So by bringing in from overseas will we be employing less qualified Nurses?

Hastings gull · Aug 27, 2015

Honky Tonx said:
So by bringing in from overseas will we be employing less qualified Nurses?

I really am in uncharted territory here but I would find it hard to believe that the nurses they do recruit abroad would be of the same standard, given that nurses here are all now are trained to degree standard.

Honky Tonx · Aug 27, 2015

Hastings gull said:
I really am in uncharted territory here but I would find it hard to believe that the nurses they do recruit abroad would be of the same standard, given that nurses here are all now are trained to degree standard.

If this is the case and by reading what others have said, why should it take longer to train our Nurses and Care workers?

Thunder Bolt · Aug 27, 2015

As I said previously, I was told by nurses, that we aren't training enough here due to lack of training places. The nurses employed from abroad are qualified & experienced, but our own youngsters can't get started.

Chicken Runner61 · Aug 27, 2015

You would be surprised how good the foreign nurses are - we some brilliant NHS staff - ok there will always be a few bad apples and they will hit your mail and express headlines but the problem is purely lack of funding on one hand and wastage on the other. It's what you want to believe as well - you might believe that the private sector is the way forward to stop the waste or you might think the private sector is eating away at the budgets of the NHS and getting 30% or more profit out of it. It's up to you, personally I think there is no reason decent NHS staff can run any department just as well as any private outfit so long as they have the same level playing field.
I've seen just as much wastage skiving and pilfering in big private companies as in public the only difference was the private companies didn't care so long as they still made a profit. It's true that smaller private companies are much more switched on and would be great if they were involved and could compete but it's pretty difficult to get a foot in because of the bureaucracy that's put in the way to make it difficult for small companies to tender. The irony being that large companies then subcontract large sections of work to the small ones when they get the contract . Either that or increase or make the profit by using low paid foreign workers that they have access to but small companies can't quickly employ. In answer to your main question it's because the training takes a long time and costs so much a big company on winning a contract will just use private employment agencies to send them staff - in the case of nurses I understand even an direct employed NHS manager will have to use a private agency to get hold of the nurses they need because nowadays everyone who wants a employee status job tends to be under an agency of some kind.

Even private hospitals lap up anyone with experience because experienced staff are hard to get. None of the two Tory parties will ever spend the money they need to to privatise the training of nurses now because Maggie and others salted the earth when she started the dismantlement of the NHS

drew · Aug 27, 2015

Nurses have to be trained to degree standard because they take on more responsibility. You now have HCAs doing the more menial tasks that nurses always did. Nothing demeaning about that because they are necessary to the depts. The problem probably started in the 80s when the number of nurses being trained was cut by the then Tory government by two thirds. That created a shortage in the following years and the immediate shortage was dealt with by overseas recruitment. Is it right that we drain overseas countries of their nursing resources, probably not, but the alternative would be longer waiting times and less quality care when you are in hospitals as there would be fewer staff to look after you. Fact is we spend less of our GDP on healthcare than virtually all of the other leading countries (we are about 15th on the list, the US, unsurprisingly, being top) yet consistently governments don't invest enough!

The NHS, instead of being a healthcare service is seen by governments as a political toy.

dazzer6666 · Aug 28, 2015

My daughter is half way through her nursing degree - there were 1800 applicants for 32 places on her course - in part because the degrees are NHS funded and therefore fee-free (even more complicated for her because she wanted to study in Scotland where different funding rules apply). Employment rate at completion from her course is over 98%

el punal · Aug 28, 2015

Honky Tonx said:
I do the ironing naked, still interested??

I read that 83% of people who watch Midsomer Murders do the ironing at the same time. Does that include you?

Honky Tonx · Aug 28, 2015

el punal said:
I read that 83% of people who watch Midsomer Murders do the ironing at the same time. Does that include you?

I do mine whilst watch Jeremy Kyle mostly. If I'm out early I record it.

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