A question for the refs. Sending off a player

Buzzer · Aug 17, 2015

I was thinking about this yesterday whilst watching the Palace v Arsenal game. The Arsenal player, dunno his name, was in a filthy mood and close to a second booking so Wenger called him off. The board goes up, the ref acknowledges it and signals for the player to go off, the substitution was announced on the tannoy and the sub is ready on the touchline as the Arsenal player walks off.

If the Arsenal player, whilst walking off but still on the pitch, had then abused the crowd or a Palace player and picked up another yellow would Arsenal have gone down to ten men with the substitution cancelled or would the act of the ref previously acknowledging the substitution mean that the player was effectively already out of the game and Arsenal could carry on with 11 men? Does that make sense?

Gwylan · Aug 17, 2015

Buzzer said:
I was thinking about this yesterday whilst watching the Palace v Arsenal game. The Arsenal player, dunno his name, was in a filthy mood and close to a second booking so Wenger called him off. The board goes up, the ref acknowledges it and signals for the player to go off, the substitution was announced on the tannoyand the sub is ready on the touchline as the Arsenal player walks off.

If the Arsenal player, whilst walking off but still on the pitch, had then abused the crowd or a Palace player and picked up another yellow would Arsenal have gone down to ten men with the substitution cancelled or would the act of the ref previously acknowledging the substitution mean that the player was effectively already out of the game and Arsenal could carry on with 11 men? Does that make sense?

I'm sure this came up in You are the Ref recently. IIRC, the substitution is made when the sub comes on the field not when the ref acknowledges it, so the team would be down to 10 men

hans kraay fan club · Aug 17, 2015

Buzzer said:
I was thinking about this yesterday whilst watching the Palace v Arsenal game. The Arsenal player, dunno his name, was in a filthy mood and close to a second booking so Wenger called him off. The board goes up, the ref acknowledges it and signals for the player to go off, the substitution was announced on the tannoy and the sub is ready on the touchline as the Arsenal player walks off.

If the Arsenal player, whilst walking off but still on the pitch, had then abused the crowd or a Palace player and picked up another yellow would Arsenal have gone down to ten men with the substitution cancelled or would the act of the ref previously acknowledging the substitution mean that the player was effectively already out of the game and Arsenal could carry on with 11 men? Does that make sense?

Good question. Personally I THINK that the substitution is NOT complete until the first player has left the field - so in your scenario, the sub would not be allowed on.

Cadiz Seagull · Aug 17, 2015

Posted in error!

SAC · Aug 17, 2015

Buzzer said:
I was thinking about this yesterday whilst watching the Palace v Arsenal game. The Arsenal player, dunno his name, was in a filthy mood and close to a second booking so Wenger called him off. The board goes up, the ref acknowledges it and signals for the player to go off, the substitution was announced on the tannoy and the sub is ready on the touchline as the Arsenal player walks off.

If the Arsenal player, whilst walking off but still on the pitch, had then abused the crowd or a Palace player and picked up another yellow would Arsenal have gone down to ten men with the substitution cancelled or would the act of the ref previously acknowledging the substitution mean that the player was effectively already out of the game and Arsenal could carry on with 11 men? Does that make sense?

Pretty sure that this has been on Your Are The Ref. As it is an Arse player, he would get given another chance.

One Teddy Maybank · Aug 17, 2015

hans kraay fan club said:
Good question. Personally I THINK that the substitution is NOT complete until the first player has left the field - so in your scenario, the sub would not be allowed on.

This.

Gwylan · Aug 17, 2015

SAC said:
Pretty sure that this has been on Your Are The Ref. As it is an Arse player, he would get given another chance.

And, when asked about the incident, Wenger wouldn't have seen it

Simster · Aug 17, 2015

SAC said:
Pretty sure that this has been on Your Are The Ref. As it is an Arse player, he would get given another chance.

Unless of course, the Arse (or anyone for that matter) were playing Palace, the jammiest spawniest twunts known to professional football. In which case, the ref would send off the fella, and two more for good measure.

WhingForPresident · Aug 17, 2015

Coquelin was very lucky to still be on the pitch when he was subbed, a second yellow was inevitable. Could be a very good player if he grows up and stops being a petulant little shit.

But yes as said above, I think the substitution would only be complete when the player coming on has entered the field of play.

BigGully · Aug 17, 2015

If a player that is being substituted then commits another bookable offence before leaving the pitch, then the ref has to send off that teams number 4 player and if that offending player commits a 'bookable offence' when he has already been substituted and has already left the pitch then that teams number 7 is sent off in his place.

Seems a silly rule to me but worth keeping in mind when making such a tactical substitution.

hans kraay fan club · Aug 17, 2015

BigGully said:
If a player that is being substituted then commits another bookable offence before leaving the pitch, then the ref has to send off that teams number 4 player and if that offending player commits a 'bookable offence' when he has already been substituted and has already left the pitch then that teams number 7 is sent off in his place.

Seems a silly rule to me but worth keeping in mind when making such a tactical substitution.

Certain that you are incorrect.

If the substitution is completed, and the first player has left the field of play, there is no way that the player coming ON could be sent off for anything the first player subsequently did.

Buzzer · Aug 17, 2015

BigGully said:
If a player that is being substituted then commits another bookable offence before leaving the pitch, then the ref has to send off that teams number 4 player and if that offending player commits a 'bookable offence' when he has already been substituted and has already left the pitch then that teams number 7 is sent off in his place.

Seems a silly rule to me but worth keeping in mind when making such a tactical substitution.

Thanks for the replies but can I just ask for clarification on your post here please? Are you saying that if the substituted player had been booked after sitting down in the dug-out then gets booked again for some argy-bargy that the player who came on in his place gets sent off?

If so, it does rather go against reason because ordinarily the player that comes on doesn't 'inherit' any bookings from the player he replaces.

BigGully · Aug 17, 2015

hans kraay fan club said:
Certain that you are incorrect.

If the substitution is completed, and the first player has left the field of play, there is no way that the player coming ON could be sent off for anything the first player subsequently did.

No sorry, my mistake it is the number 8 that gets sent off if the other 'bookable offence' is done before he gets to the touchline and the number 10 if its after he has left the field.

Notters · Aug 17, 2015

Pretty sure whenever any player is on the pitch, they're under the control of the ref. Which is why I've been getting really annoyed with refs at the Amex lately who have come off straight after blowing the final whistle, as they should always be the last off the pitch.

Buzzer · Aug 17, 2015

BigGully said:
No sorry, my mistake it is the number 8 that gets sent off if the other 'bookable offence' is done before he gets to the touchline and the number 10 if its after he has left the field.

Now you've lost me, sorry. Are you saying there are specific positions that would have to forfeit their place on the pitch for specific bookable offences by substituted players? Or is this an elaborate gag that's gone over my head?

Confused of Brighton.

BigGully · Aug 17, 2015

Buzzer said:
Now you've lost me, sorry. Are you saying there are specific positions that would have to forfeit their place on the pitch for specific bookable offences by substituted players? Or is this an elaborate gag that's gone over my head?

Confused of Brighton.

You can only substitute the goalie on behalf of the offending player if he is booked whilst leaving the field for a terrace infringement, a bit like Catona, but for anything else it is number 8 and number 10.

Buzzer · Aug 17, 2015

BigGully said:
You can only substitute the goalie on behalf of the offending player if he is booked whilst leaving the field for a terrace infringement, a bit like Catona, but for anything else it is number 8 and number 10.

I'm really sorry, I must be being particularly thick today but that confuses me more and I'm not sure if the part about the goalie is true, If a goalie gets sent off then it makes perfect sense to bring on a sub goalie and take off an outfield player but I don't think there's a requirement to do so. And you keep commenting about numbers 4,7, 8 and 10 are these merely player positions quoted in old money, so to speak, and if so, what happens if the team aren't playing 4-4-2?

"You need to take off your centre forward"

"We haven't got one"

Buzzer · Aug 17, 2015

I've just been informed that BigGully is on a wind-up. Hilarious.

Man of Harveys · Aug 17, 2015

BigGully said:
a bit like Catona

What did Kerry get sent off for? Trying to sniff the white lines on the pitch, I reckon.

Postman Pat · Aug 17, 2015

Notters said:
Pretty sure whenever any player is on the pitch, they're under the control of the ref. Which is why I've been getting really annoyed with refs at the Amex lately who have come off straight after blowing the final whistle, as they should always be the last off the pitch.

Players are under the jurisdiction of the ref from the moment the ref arrives at the ground until the moment they leave. If a player were to abuse the ref in the car park before the game they could in theory be given a red card and be unable to take part in the match.

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A question for the refs. Sending off a player

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The voice of reason.

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"the man's an arse"

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