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Magna Carta Celebrations today







Peteinblack

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jun 3, 2004
3,583
Bath, Somerset.
Human Rights nonsense :wink:
 




Acker79

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Nov 15, 2008
31,765
Brighton
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/15/world/europe/magna-carta-still-posing-a-challenge-at-800.html

“The myth of Magna Carta lies at the whole origin of our perception of who we are as an English-speaking people, freedom-loving people who’ve lived with a degree of liberty and under a rule of law for 800 years,” said Nicholas Vincent, a professor at the University of East Anglia and the author of “Magna Carta: A Very Short Introduction.”

“It’s a load of tripe, of course. But it’s a very useful myth.”

For one thing, as Jill Lepore pointed out recently in The New Yorker, the original Magna Carta in fact lived a short life and died an obscure death.

It was not seen at the time as marking a great moment in democratic history. Nobody had a chance to follow any of its provisions. Almost immediately after agreeing to it, King John prevailed on the pope to annul it. (In an instance of, perhaps, poetic justice, John died of dysentery shortly afterward.)

Also, it was a narrowly fashioned agreement between a small group of privileged people and an even-more-privileged monarch; there was no mention of regular people or of democracy as we know it.

The original Magna Carta became the basis for a number of successive agreements over the years, signed again and again by various kings, culminating in a more definitive 1297 version, one of whose copies Mr. Rubenstein bought for the National Archives.

But it was not until centuries later that Magna Carta was resurrected, reinterpreted and held up as a great symbol of the rule of law. It was invoked in the early days of the American colonies, again during the drafting of the Constitution, and countless times since.

“It’s one of the many, many things in the Anglo-American legal tradition that will eventually grow and mutate and be misinterpreted as something that’s important,” Akhil Amar, a professor at Yale Law School and author, most recently, of “The Law of the Land,” said of Magna Carta, using the historical present. He added: “Stuff happens later that endows it with a certain retrospective significance.”​
 
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glasfryn

cleaning up cat sick
Nov 29, 2005
20,261
somewhere in Eastbourne
and the yanks will be there at Runnymede trying to steal our history....
 




The Spanish

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2008
6,477
P
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/15/world/europe/magna-carta-still-posing-a-challenge-at-800.html

“The myth of Magna Carta lies at the whole origin of our perception of who we are as an English-speaking people, freedom-loving people who’ve lived with a degree of liberty and under a rule of law for 800 years,” said Nicholas Vincent, a professor at the University of East Anglia and the author of “Magna Carta: A Very Short Introduction.”

“It’s a load of tripe, of course. But it’s a very useful myth.”

For one thing, as Jill Lepore pointed out recently in The New Yorker, the original Magna Carta in fact lived a short life and died an obscure death.

It was not seen at the time as marking a great moment in democratic history. Nobody had a chance to follow any of its provisions. Almost immediately after agreeing to it, King John prevailed on the pope to annul it. (In an instance of, perhaps, poetic justice, John died of dysentery shortly afterward.)

Also, it was a narrowly fashioned agreement between a small group of privileged people and an even-more-privileged monarch; there was no mention of regular people or of democracy as we know it.

The original Magna Carta became the basis for a number of successive agreements over the years, signed again and again by various kings, culminating in a more definitive 1297 version, one of whose copies Mr. Rubenstein bought for the National Archives.

But it was not until centuries later that Magna Carta was resurrected, reinterpreted and held up as a great symbol of the rule of law. It was invoked in the early days of the American colonies, again during the drafting of the Constitution, and countless times since.

“It’s one of the many, many things in the Anglo-American legal tradition that will eventually grow and mutate and be misinterpreted as something that’s important,” Akhil Amar, a professor at Yale Law School and author, most recently, of “The Law of the Land,” said of Magna Carta, using the historical present. He added: “Stuff happens later that endows it with a certain retrospective significance.”​

seems to be wilfully revisionist. that the original was short lived and it was not invoked again seriously for a long time later, still shouldnt lessen its significance historically. Just like a mathematical medical or technological breakthough of centuries ago, that hasnt been always applied and immediately developed upon. People have a very linear view of history and human development, which is not necessarily true.
 




Acker79

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Nov 15, 2008
31,765
Brighton
seems to be wilfully revisionist. that the original was short lived and it was not invoked again seriously for a long time later, still shouldnt lessen its significance historically. Just like a mathematical medical or technological breakthough of centuries ago, that hasnt been always applied and immediately developed upon. People have a very linear view of history and human development, which is not necessarily true.

I quoted that part of the article before I finished reading the whole thing myself. To be fair to it, they do go on to voice the other side of the argument, suggesting it is simply trendy to dismiss the meaningfulness of the Magna Carta, and that it's importance isn't and shouldn't be contained to its immediate impact.
 


Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
30,521
Interesting that historian David Starkey has been wheeled out to comment on Magna Carta yet by comparing the SNP with the Nazi Party has completely overshadowed the 800 year-old document. As mischief-making goes he is right up there with Katie Hopkins and Russell Brand.
 


Mackenzie

Old Brightonian
Nov 7, 2003
33,508
East Wales
Coughs and sneezes spread diseases, always use a handkerchief......
 




cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,744
Interesting that historian David Starkey has been wheeled out to comment on Magna Carta yet by comparing the SNP with the Nazi Party has completely overshadowed the 800 year-old document. As mischief-making goes he is right up there with Katie Hopkins and Russell Brand.


To be fair to Starkey, (if was about his interview on R5) he was gleefully prodded by the R5 presenter to explain himself on the matter which he did whilst remarking that he was on to discuss MC.

In any event, I thought he did explain his position reasonably well, which was not to invoke a view that Salmond and Sturgeon (or should we refer to them as the SS?) were brown shirted fascists soon to embark on an updated version of kristalnacht on English owned businesses north of the border, however the SNP are national socialists, with a very stong sense of nationalism and grevience with the status quo Union.

Politically that may be a philospohical point, however it was not an outrageous slur....................the SNP are by their own admission a national socailist party.
 


vegster

Sanity Clause
May 5, 2008
27,867
If ever you thought that Great Britain is not Great any more, tonight's South Today showing some of the local " Celebrations " proved it beyond doubt. It really looked like the cheap BBC It's A Knockout ! we used to stage with " Barons " made out of couloured cotton held together with Bamboo canes, the only thing missing was the race with plastic buckets to collect water jetting out of a Dragons Arse or similar.
 


Eeyore

Lord Donkey of Queen's Park
NSC Patreon
Apr 5, 2014
23,381
I quoted that part of the article before I finished reading the whole thing myself. To be fair to it, they do go on to voice the other side of the argument, suggesting it is simply trendy to dismiss the meaningfulness of the Magna Carta, and that it's importance isn't and shouldn't be contained to its immediate impact.

I dismiss it because it was a hastily arranged document to appease the wealthy landowners and not the ordinary folk. Even the idea of trial by jury was only extended to freemen.

But politicians should celebrate it if they wish. It is a perfect snapshot of how the concentration of power has not changed in 800 years.
 



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