Its the People not the Politicians

We get the politics we deserve and as a people we don't deserve much. Here's why

Millions read the Sun every day
More millions read the Mail
We say we like politicians to speak the truth. If they do we don't vote for them!
We don't connect paying tax with getting good public services, We want low tax and good schools - it wont happen. Look at the tax they pay in Scandinavia
We voted for Thatcher for hundreds of years because she used North Sea Oil to give us tax cuts and cheap council houses. What she should have been doing is investing for the future but we were too short sighted to see that
We are anti Europe and anti immigrant without really having a clue about it. We just conveniently blame the EU and immigrants for everything. Most anti immigrant feeling is from communities who don't have any!
We think Farage is a "man of the people" when he is an ex city stockbroker who was privately educated
We think Milliband is privately educated when he actually went to a comprehensive

Do I need to go on? We are an ignorant society and good politicians must find that impossible to cope with. In the meantime it makes it so easy for a simple populist like Farage to peddle his myths and half truths

The voters need to get their act together otherwise we are heading for real trouble

sahel said:

We get the politics we deserve and as a people we don't deserve much. Here's why

Millions read the Sun every day
More millions read the Mail
We say we like politicians to speak the truth. If they do we don't vote for them!
We don't connect paying tax with getting good public services, We want low tax and good schools - it wont happen. Look at the tax they pay in Scandinavia
We voted for Thatcher for hundreds of years because she used North Sea Oil to give us tax cuts and cheap council houses. What she should have been doing is investing for the future but we were too short sighted to see that
We are anti Europe and anti immigrant without really having a clue about it. We just conveniently blame the EU and immigrants for everything. Most anti immigrant feeling is from communities who don't have any!
We think Farage is a "man of the people" when he is an ex city stockbroker who was privately educated
We think Milliband is privately educated when he actually went to a comprehensive

Do I need to go on? We are an ignorant society and good politicians must find that impossible to cope with. In the meantime it makes it so easy for a simple populist like Farage to peddle his myths and half truths

The voters need to get their act together otherwise we are heading for real trouble

Click to expand...

We also help prop up a society where any old git can spout what ever piffle they fancy without ending up in a shallow grave Swings and roundabouts.

The problem is no party is ever in government long enough to be able to set the necessary long term plan required. This leads to short termism where politicians have to say what the electorate want to hear to try and secure another term in office. And so the circle continues

Where did you cat & paste that from?

Programme_Seller said:

Where did you cat & paste that from?

Click to expand...

It was all my own thoughts! meeeoooow!

Dorset Seagull said:

The problem is no party is ever in government long enough to be able to set the necessary long term plan required. This leads to short termism where politicians have to say what the electorate want to hear to try and secure another term in office. And so the circle continues

Click to expand...

Ehhh ?? How long do you think they need then given the following :

1979 - 1997 Tory Government - 18 years
1997 - 2010 Labour Government - 13 years

It would help if they weren't all a bunch of lying *******s.

sahel said:

We get the politics we deserve and as a people we don't deserve much. Here's why

Millions read the Sun every day
More millions read the Mail
We say we like politicians to speak the truth. If they do we don't vote for them!
We don't connect paying tax with getting good public services, We want low tax and good schools - it wont happen. Look at the tax they pay in Scandinavia
We voted for Thatcher for hundreds of years because she used North Sea Oil to give us tax cuts and cheap council houses. What she should have been doing is investing for the future but we were too short sighted to see that
We are anti Europe and anti immigrant without really having a clue about it. We just conveniently blame the EU and immigrants for everything. Most anti immigrant feeling is from communities who don't have any!
We think Farage is a "man of the people" when he is an ex city stockbroker who was privately educated
We think Milliband is privately educated when he actually went to a comprehensive

Do I need to go on? We are an ignorant society and good politicians must find that impossible to cope with. In the meantime it makes it so easy for a simple populist like Farage to peddle his myths and half truths

The voters need to get their act together otherwise we are heading for real trouble

Click to expand...

I appreciate some of what you say, though it is rather sweeping, to put it mildly. I do, however, find it rather superior when you dismiss millions who read the DM. I presume you feel that you show greater wisdom than those wretchedly ill-informed millions. I doubt very much that most people are "anti-immigrant" as such, as you say, rather they fear for the consequences as immigration is perceived as seemingly getting out of control. As for the assertion that "anti-immigrant" feeling is highest in areas with no significant numbers of immigrants, I suspect that you have little or no evidence for this. Immigrants tend to settle initially albeit, in poorer areas, and so it would be surprising if there were not tensions in these areas. The UKIP vote was high in two tory and one labour seat, of the three by-elections that have taken place.
Yes, I agree with the statement about our hypocrisy when it comes to paying taxes - I always put it that "we all try and avoid paying tax, yet expect the ambulance to arrive in 8 minutes."
Whilst it is true that Miliband did go to a comprehensive, albeit one in a smart part of London, the rest of his life has been extraordinarily narrow. He is certainly not a man of the people!

sahel said:

We get the politics we deserve and as a people we don't deserve much. Here's why

Millions read the Sun every day
More millions read the Mail

Click to expand...

And with that you reveal so much about your own prejudices and voting intentions. You think Emily Thornberry's attitude is a product of those papers? And then you just go on to preach the truth like you're one of the few with real knowledge. People aren't voting UKIP or Tory because they have a different view to you - it's because they're wrong. That's basically what you're saying.

Oh, those ghastly Sun and Mail readers. The horror!

sahel said:

Do I need to go on? We are an ignorant society and good politicians must find that impossible to cope with. In the meantime it makes it so easy for a simple populist like Farage to peddle his myths and half truths

The voters need to get their act together otherwise we are heading for real trouble

Click to expand...

Iv'e just left in the part of your post that was separated and put at the end.....the part you really wanted to get across, just another anti ukip thread really, which could have been added to any one of about twenty others.

Soulman said:

Iv'e just left in the part of your post that was separated and put at the end.....the part you really wanted to get across, just another anti ukip thread really, which could have been added to any one of about twenty others.

Click to expand...

Quite. There's a fundamental flaw in his/her diatribe - the disconnect and distrust between the electorate and politicians is not a British thing, it's global.

The voters in Italy are so dismayed with politics that a new party started by comedy actor, Beppe Grillo is now a major player in local, national and Euro elections. In Reykjavik the mayor (one of the most important political positions in Iceland) is also a comedian - the electorate sending a very strong message to the powers that be. The OP moans about anti-EU sentiment in the UK but things are so bad in Greece that a far-right party are dangerously close to pulling that country apart - and all because of the way that the EU has right royally shafted Greece. And if being good Europeans has got Greece into this mess where does this leave them if being bad Europeans like the Brits is also a terrible thing?

Are the Icelandics, Greeks and Italians also ignorant, short-sighted and need to get their act together?

Politicians are career civil servants and they will do whatever it takes to remain in their jobs. It doesn't matter if they disagree with the party line...they just swallow their convictions, keep quiet, keep their heads down and carry on. The outspoken ones usually remain festering on the back benches, whilst the schmoozers and arse lickers progress to more senior posts. They all hope they graduate to Brussels and jump aboard that corrupt gravy train and draw a six figure salary for not doing very much.
Its not the people's fault for getting the politicians we deserve. When you are younger, you think you can change the world but as you mature, you realise that you can't change anything. The Establishment is in place and always will be. It is a network of high ranking, low profile officials, controlling our affairs. They steer us like puppets on a string. Everything is tied up and in place. It is like a respectable form of the Mafia. The four main areas of influence that control our lives...1) The Civil Service ( incl politicians ) 2) The Banking System 3) The Judiciary and Legal System and to a lesser extent 4) The Freemasonry System are all intrinsically linked and all work together to help each other. It is like a private members club, only open to a very few.
Behind these areas are the real power brokers...' the men in grey suits '....immense prestige and power ( and often wealth ) They do exist and they run our country. Not the PM, the Lord Chief Justice or the Governor of the Bank of England but this small group of men. My father built a career in the City and knew some of these men. He wouldn't talk about them or name them but simply acknowledged their power and influence.
Politicians don't make dramatic changes, whatever they promise. They can't. Their hands are tied. The system is in place and all they do is tinker a bit around the edges with a few soundbites chucked in for good measure. Politicians are supposed to be our elected representatives. To represent our interests. But they don't.
Surely, if they wanted to make a major difference, they would look at the following areas....
a) The size of our population and its effect on our lifestyle. We don't want ever increasing pressure on our services, schools, hospitals and roads. We are a relatively small island without infinite resources. The recent open-door policy to immigration has created even more of a divide in our society. We have a vast sector encompassing the black economy and low wage earners ( fast food and healthcare mainly ) Mostly migrant workers, not interested in investing in this country. The pressure to build more and more housing is increasing daily and now, nowhere is sacred, not even green belt. Urban areas are stretching further and further. Ignore what you are told. We have an optimum population size for this country and we have already outstripped it. It will only get worse.
( Why will this not happen....because the more immigration there is, the more work it provides for the Legal System, the Judiciary and the Civil Service.....Cherie Blair wasn't daft! )
b) Taxation. Everything could be solved overnight with a flat rate of tax ( e.g 15% ) Everyone pays the same rate irrespective of earnings and above a tax-free allowance figure. If you trade in the UK, you pay 15% tax. The revenue to the Exchequer would be higher and the public would feel a lot more comfortable knowing that tax dodging was being greatly reduced.
( Why will this not happen....HMRC would have to ditch thousands of jobs and accountants would go mad. The Civil Service is protective of its size and influence and doesn't want it diminished )
3) Fuel costs. The singular most important thing to British industry. It affects the costs of goods and services in our everyday lives. Road haulage is fundamental to us. We cannot rely on trains or canals. But we are bled dry. It is a massive cash cow for the Government and because of their inefficiences, they rely on it. It is the biggest thing they could do to help British industry but they won't.
There are clearly other areas of importance but I have ranted on enough. As a people, we are fairly passive and don't rise up in big enough numbers. A hundred thousand marching on Whitehall won't change anything. You need 5 million blockading ports, roads, government offices etc. It ain't gonna happen. We are under the control of Big Brother and they have us by the you know whats.

Buzzer said:

Quite. There's a fundamental flaw in his/her diatribe - the disconnect and distrust between the electorate and politicians is not a British thing, it's global.

The voters in Italy are so dismayed with politics that a new party started by comedy actor, Beppe Grillo is now a major player in local, national and Euro elections. In Reykjavik the mayor (one of the most important political positions in Iceland) is also a comedian - the electorate sending a very strong message to the powers that be. The OP moans about anti-EU sentiment in the UK but things are so bad in Greece that a far-right party are dangerously close to pulling that country apart - and all because of the way that the EU has right royally shafted Greece. And if being good Europeans has got Greece into this mess where does this leave them if being bad Europeans like the Brits is also a terrible thing?

Are the Icelandics, Greeks and Italians also ignorant, short-sighted and need to get their act together?

Click to expand...

Yes, you are imho quite right in that there clearly is this divide. I suspect that the electorate in many European countries are turning against the EU, as it is increasingly perceived to have become ever more distant, corrupt, meddling and self-serving for the Brussels bureaucrats -was there not also recently a shift against it in France?
As to your example of Greece, to be fair to the EU, I am not sure that the EU has "royally shafted" Greece. as you state, though I am not an economist. The EU has bailed out Greece financially on a couple of occasions, and a condition of these loans is that Greece introduces austerity to put its own house in order, so that they do not permanently keep coming with the begging bowl, but are doing - and seen to be doing - their own bit. Not surprisingly, the Greeks do not like this, as this will involve sacrifice, but that this is not necessarily the fault of the EU.

Hastings gull said:

Yes, you are imho quite right in that there clearly is this divide. I suspect that the electorate in many European countries are turning against the EU, as it is increasingly perceived to have become ever more distant, corrupt, meddling and self-serving for the Brussels bureaucrats -was there not also recently a shift against it in France?
As to your example of Greece, to be fair to the EU, I am not sure that the EU has "royally shafted" Greece. as you state, though I am not an economist. The EU has bailed out Greece financially on a couple of occasions, and a condition of these loans is that Greece introduces austerity to put its own house in order, so that they do not permanently keep coming with the begging bowl, but are doing - and seen to be doing - their own bit. Not surprisingly, the Greeks do not like this, as this will involve sacrifice, but that this is not necessarily the fault of the EU.

Click to expand...

As part of the agreement by France and Germany to allow Greece to join the Euro despite not meeting the 'strict' criteria was that Greece had to buy goods, lots of goods from the two big boys. The major purchase was weapons including 3 billion pounds worth of German submarines that never worked. Greece became the 4th largest buyer of conventional weapons in the world in the noughties. Guess who sold them all those weapons? And why would Greece, a fully-fledged member of NATO want with all those weapons bought from other NATO countries?

http://www.sipri.org/media/pressreleases/2013/ATlaunch

And even when France and Germany were demanding austerity measures from the Greeks they were still expected to pay for the weapons.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/...306/France-Germany-Forced-Greece-Buy-Arms-MEP

(The submarines have never worked. A quick google will reveal all but this was a major factor in pushing Greece over the edge both economically and politically).

Westdene Seagull said:

Ehhh ?? How long do you think they need then given the following :

1979 - 1997 Tory Government - 18 years
1997 - 2010 Labour Government - 13 years

Click to expand...

The point is that they didn't know that when they came to power so generally took a short term view

Buzzer said:

And with that you reveal so much about your own prejudices and voting intentions. You think Emily Thornberry's attitude is a product of those papers? And then you just go on to preach the truth like you're one of the few with real knowledge. People aren't voting UKIP or Tory because they have a different view to you - it's because they're wrong. That's basically what you're saying.

Oh, those ghastly Sun and Mail readers. The horror!

Click to expand...

Do you think the Mail and Sun give a balanced view of the EU or of immigration? Of course not, they have story after story that reveal their prejudices. You seem to think that is ok. However when I dare to say the opposite I am "preaching". How come?

Hastings gull said:

I appreciate some of what you say, though it is rather sweeping, to put it mildly. I do, however, find it rather superior when you dismiss millions who read the DM. I presume you feel that you show greater wisdom than those wretchedly ill-informed millions. I doubt very much that most people are "anti-immigrant" as such, as you say, rather they fear for the consequences as immigration is perceived as seemingly getting out of control. As for the assertion that "anti-immigrant" feeling is highest in areas with no significant numbers of immigrants, I suspect that you have little or no evidence for this. Immigrants tend to settle initially albeit, in poorer areas, and so it would be surprising if there were not tensions in these areas. The UKIP vote was high in two tory and one labour seat, of the three by-elections that have taken place.
Yes, I agree with the statement about our hypocrisy when it comes to paying taxes - I always put it that "we all try and avoid paying tax, yet expect the ambulance to arrive in 8 minutes."
Whilst it is true that Miliband did go to a comprehensive, albeit one in a smart part of London, the rest of his life has been extraordinarily narrow. He is certainly not a man of the people!

Click to expand...

The subject of attitudes to immigration is well researched and this shows that antipathy towards immigration is higher in areas with very low levels of immigrants. This is probably explained by fear of the "other" in areas where people are not used to interacting with them

sahel said:

Do you think the Mail and Sun give a balanced view of the EU or of immigration? Of course not, they have story after story that reveal their prejudices. You seem to think that is ok. However when I dare to say the opposite I am "preaching". How come?

Click to expand...

Why should they give a balanced view? Just as with every newspaper they pander to their readers' prejudices. Take a look at the comments in the Guardian newspaper section after this article today where Miliband says that Labour stands for ordinary working people

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-working-people-miliband-tells-white-van-man

Yeah, but... Daniel Ware does look like a bit of a thundering ********, doesn't he?

How patriotic is the White van man when the flags he's flying are some filthy crappy polyester 'Chinese' rubbish? Show some respect man and grow a brain while you're at it.

I'm working class, as are all my family, but I certainly wouldn't want this prick living next to me

The vile, offensive and downright bigoted comments go on and on and on and on. These were all just on the first page and these are supposedly enlightened readers of a 'quality' broadsheet making huge judgements about an ordinary normal bloke because of what he looks like and his habits. Swap that white van man for a muslim woman in a burqa, swap the Guardian readers for the Sun readers and you get exactly the same comments. EXACTLY the same.

For years now, the Guardian has peddled the view that UKIP are a bunch of racists, that blokes like this bald bloke with a van and a desire to fly his flag outside his house must be UKIP..if not BNP. Must be...look at him. He looks the type. Turns out the bloke actually votes Tory but that doesn't stop the myth of white van man being peddled as a racist.It's what the Guardian's readers want to to believe. It makes it all so easy to dismiss this nasty sort of chap and his nasty political views. And that's why you get these bigoted comments in a broadsheet.

sahel said:

The subject of attitudes to immigration is well researched and this shows that antipathy towards immigration is higher in areas with very low levels of immigrants. This is probably explained by fear of the "other" in areas where people are not used to interacting with them

Click to expand...

I see what you are saying in your last sentence, and this could well be true, though I am not sure how logical this is -why would you fear something which has little or no effect on your daily life? In areas where there has been transformation due to high levels of immigration, particularly from non-EU countries, there could equally be antipathy due to the sheer scale of the change - this is the point, rather than immigration, as such.
With respect to your good self, I am very sceptical as to your statement that it is all well researched - it might have been "researched" but was it well?! Was there not a "study" recently which said that immigration from the EU was good for the economy, which in a sense, if they are all working, is probably true. What it did not take into account, however, are the implications for the infrastructure and eg pressure on the NHS, with many more demands on it. And it conveniently ignored non-EU immigration. Furthermore it then emerged that the person behind the "research" was the very individual who predicted all those years ago that we should not worry as 13,000 poles would come here - in the event, approx. 700,000 have done.

at the mention of the "sun" we were in M&S(NAME DROPPING AGAIN) cafe yesterday and while waiting for wifey to be served with their great flat white, I glanced sideways to see a "sun" on the table and casually flipped through the pages to be nosy ( I never usually read papers) it was the most unadulterated s**t I have ever had the misfortune to read.
no wonder kids grow up to be morons.
DO NOT READ THE "SUN"