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Refused entry on a direct debit



fosters headband

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2003
5,158
Brighton
My Grandson who like many 18/19 year olds, is struggling to pay his adult priced season ticket on Direct Debit and on Saturday was refused entry. He was informed that one payment had been missed and I think that if true would have been 1st September, despite him assuring me he had enough funds in his account to cover the payment.

He also assures me that he had not been contacted in any way by the club informing him there was a problem and he said felt extremely embarrassed to be turned away at the gate in front of other fans. I always meet him inside the ground so I was unaware of what had happened, otherwise I could have helped him at the club shop, where they demanded £86 for him to go into the ground to see the game, that was his missed payment of £36 + £50 administration fee. He obviously did not have that kind of cash on him or bank cards, so he missed the game and went back home.

Now what I would like to know, has anyone suffered missing a payment and has been contacted by the club to inform you of the situation, so that you can address the problem? After all, it would have been nearly three weeks since a payment would have been missed and I feel it is a little harsh to let any fan come along, unaware of a problem, thinking he will see the game and then embarrassingly be refused entrance.
I cannot think of any other example where a missed payment does not result in some kind of communication informing you to urgently rectify the problem.
He has not been able to contact the bank yet to see why it was not paid.

So does anyone know if this is club procedure or has there been a massive communication breakdown somewhere along the line and before anyone says he was probably skint and the money was not there, knowing teenagers this is a possibility, but we could not come to his aid as no one was aware.
 


Publius Ovidius

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
45,919
at home
£50 admin fee?

Speak to withdean whatsisface as this seems like a fine that could be illegal?

Taking your points above, this is an example of pure overkill and is not the impression that our club should be trying to promote. Or there again, perhaps it is.
 


CheeseRolls

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jan 27, 2009
5,922
Shoreham Beach
My Grandson who like many 18/19 year olds, is struggling to pay his adult priced season ticket on Direct Debit and on Saturday was refused entry. He was informed that one payment had been missed and I think that if true would have been 1st September, despite him assuring me he had enough funds in his account to cover the payment.

He also assures me that he had not been contacted in any way by the club informing him there was a problem and he said felt extremely embarrassed to be turned away at the gate in front of other fans. I always meet him inside the ground so I was unaware of what had happened, otherwise I could have helped him at the club shop, where they demanded £86 for him to go into the ground to see the game, that was his missed payment of £36 + £50 administration fee. He obviously did not have that kind of cash on him or bank cards, so he missed the game and went back home.

Now what I would like to know, has anyone suffered missing a payment and has been contacted by the club to inform you of the situation, so that you can address the problem? After all, it would have been nearly three weeks since a payment would have been missed and I feel it is a little harsh to let any fan come along, unaware of a problem, thinking he will see the game and then embarrassingly be refused entrance.
I cannot think of any other example where a missed payment does not result in some kind of communication informing you to urgently rectify the problem.
He has not been able to contact the bank yet to see why it was not paid.

So does anyone know if this is club procedure or has there been a massive communication breakdown somewhere along the line and before anyone says he was probably skint and the money was not there, knowing teenagers this is a possibility, but we could not come to his aid as no one was aware.

That does seem harsh, probably best to check that he has kept his contact information up to date though, before going on the offensive with the club.
 








fosters headband

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2003
5,158
Brighton
£50 admin fee?

Speak to withdean whatsisface as this seems like a fine that could be illegal?

Taking your points above, this is an example of pure overkill and is not the impression that our club should be trying to promote. Or there again, perhaps it is.

What I find a little harsh is, that he has been paying £36 per month since June a total of £108 (if the September payment was missed) and this was the 4th home game, that at £25 per game comes to £100 which means they could have let him in and told him to sort it out before the next game, but no.
 


fosters headband

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2003
5,158
Brighton
That does seem harsh, probably best to check that he has kept his contact information up to date though, before going on the offensive with the club.

Thanks for the advice. but I have no intention of going on the offensive unless the club has broken any kind of policy, but I can't find anything that covers this scenario.
 


Westdene Seagull

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch
NSC Patreon
Oct 27, 2003
20,938
The arse end of Hangleton
£50 admin fee?

Speak to withdean whatsisface as this seems like a fine that could be illegal?

Taking your points above, this is an example of pure overkill and is not the impression that our club should be trying to promote. Or there again, perhaps it is.

I suspect this is aimed at me so you meant Westdene whatisface.

Under contract law a company can not 'fine' a private individual for breaking the contract. All they can ask for is the amount to put them back to the position as if the contract hadn't been broken along with their costs in doing so. So in this case @fosters headband jnr would owe his monthly payment plus any associated costs the club has had to bear. Has it cost the club £50 ? Unlikely when compared to say the admin fee for breaking your mortgage contract is £35. How does the club get to £50 worth of costs ? If they can prove that it does cost them that then fine - they can charge it - but if he's not even had a letter then I struggle to think they've had any costs other than any charge they may have had from their bank for a declined DD.

Sadly too many people don't know their rights and so just pay up "admin" fees without question. And there is no illegality here - just unlawfulness ..... possibly.
 




Gazwag

5 millionth post poster
Mar 4, 2004
30,093
Bexhill-on-Sea
The club will be charged by the bank for a bounced DD although £50 does seem a bit high, most DD loan agreements (which is what this is) charge at least £25 admin fee for a missed DD so I would say that is a fairer fee, I certainly would not expect any business to let people get away with it for nothing.

It may seem harsh but if he is struggling to pay for his season ticket then should he have one?
 


fosters headband

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2003
5,158
Brighton
The club will be charged by the bank for a bounced DD although £50 does seem a bit high, most DD loan agreements (which is what this is) charge at least £25 admin fee for a missed DD so I would say that is a fairer fee, I certainly would not expect any business to let people get away with it for nothing.

It may seem harsh but if he is struggling to pay for his season ticket then should he have one?

I do appreciate your input on the charges, but I find your last sentence a little strange, as a lot of people have mortgages who struggle to pay them, should they be allowed to have them. People try to manage there money to what they can afford and sometimes they have blips. Does this allow the likes of the Albion to cash in when they do?
 


spring hall convert

Well-known member
Nov 3, 2009
9,608
Brighton
Are his contact details up to date with the club? E-mail, phone number and address? I can't believe the club wouldn't have dropped him a line to let him know what was goingon.

I had a similar thing happen and the club had been trying to contact me, however, they had an out of date e-mail address.
 




CheeseRolls

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jan 27, 2009
5,922
Shoreham Beach
I do appreciate your input on the charges, but I find your last sentence a little strange, as a lot of people have mortgages who struggle to pay them, should they be allowed to have them. People try to manage there money to what they can afford and sometimes they have blips. Does this allow the likes of the Albion to cash in when they do?

I do think there should be a section of the ground where 18-21 year olds can buy discounted tickets. At this age very few are financially independent and I believe it would help to build long term support.

I disagree with the interpretation of others on here that the £50 is an admin fee/fine. There is a significant discount on buying a season ticket versus paying on a per match basis. This makes business sense, to the club, in that they get the cashflow benefits of money up front, plus very accurate forecasts of future revenue. The reduction in the administrative overhead, whilst significant is not the major factor here.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,719
Hove
That is really out of order.

On the day the club should have accepted he hadn't be previously notified and let him pay just the missed payment, not the admin fee.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have to pay an admin fee, but this could have been billed at a later date, or would it be so difficult to say add £5 to the next 10 DD payments?

I don't see why the club couldn't be more accommodating on a match day, as I said, don't see any reason that the £50 couldn't be paid at a later date. Doesn't sound at all good from the club to turn away a fan like that.
 


Goldstone1976

We Got Calde in!!
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patreon
Apr 30, 2013
13,765
Herts
The club has the right to prevent access if you default on payment. It's contained in the T&Cs associated with buying a ST:

"Without prejudice to any other remedies it may have, the Club shall have the right in the case of any serious or persistent breach of the Terms & Conditions of Entry to cancel and withdraw your Season Ticket. In the event of such cancellation no refund will be paid in respect of any unexpired portion of the Season Ticket. Without prejudice to the general nature of the above the following actions shall constitute serious breach of the Terms & Conditions of Entry: ......

....7.1.11 any failure to pay or default of payment in respect of any sums owing to the Club (or any third party) in respect of this Season Ticket.

7.2 In the event that your Season Ticket is withdrawn or cancelled the Club reserves the right to exclude you from any membership scheme maintained or organised by the Club and/or to disqualify you from applying for any Match ticket or season ticket at its discretion."

http://www.seagullstickets.com/screenloader.aspx?page=documents/html/tandc.html

Technically, the club could thus prevent a defaulter from ever attending any game at the AMEX. Presumably, they would exercise this right if someone defaulted persistently. I doubt they'd do it for a one-off as it would be self-defeating.

A £50 admin charge for a single default does seem a bit steep (£25 would be more reasonable, imo), but I can well see why they want to seriously dissuade ST holders from defaulting. If it were easy and there were no real penalties for doing so, I would imagine that a lot more ST holders would do so, which would be an admin nightmare (someone would have to chase every defaulter) and could also significantly effect cashflow.

PB has made it clear on several occasions that adherence to the payment schedule is really important, e.g. :

"This does however rely on all supporters strictly maintaining their payments..."

http://www.seagulls.co.uk/tickets/seasontickets/

While I agree that it would be nice, and probably good practice, if the club had let him know in advance that his payment had been declined, I don't think they are obligated to do so. He signed a contract, taking advantage of an interest-free loan (which is what the DD scheme amounts to). He then broke the contract, so the club decided to not honour their part of the contract :shrug:

I'd have thought that if he pushed hard enough, they'd reduce the admin charge to £25 this time. If he defaulted again, expect him to pay the £50.
 




Everest

Me
Jul 5, 2003
20,741
Southwick
Get your grandson to check with his bank that the DD was actually requested by the club.

The last payment of last season, mine didn't go through because my bank wasn't asked for it.
The club contacted me that the payment had declined. I phoned them to pay it and they told me there would be an admin fee, though they didn't say how much.
I told them that there was no way I was going to pay it as it was their error, which they agreed.
 


fosters headband

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2003
5,158
Brighton
The club has the right to prevent access if you default on payment. It's contained in the T&Cs associated with buying a ST:

"Without prejudice to any other remedies it may have, the Club shall have the right in the case of any serious or persistent breach of the Terms & Conditions of Entry to cancel and withdraw your Season Ticket. In the event of such cancellation no refund will be paid in respect of any unexpired portion of the Season Ticket. Without prejudice to the general nature of the above the following actions shall constitute serious breach of the Terms & Conditions of Entry: ......

....7.1.11 any failure to pay or default of payment in respect of any sums owing to the Club (or any third party) in respect of this Season Ticket.

7.2 In the event that your Season Ticket is withdrawn or cancelled the Club reserves the right to exclude you from any membership scheme maintained or organised by the Club and/or to disqualify you from applying for any Match ticket or season ticket at its discretion."

http://www.seagullstickets.com/screenloader.aspx?page=documents/html/tandc.html

Technically, the club could thus prevent a defaulter from ever attending any game at the AMEX. Presumably, they would exercise this right if someone defaulted persistently. I doubt they'd do it for a one-off as it would be self-defeating.

A £50 admin charge for a single default does seem a bit steep (£25 would be more reasonable, imo), but I can well see why they want to seriously dissuade ST holders from defaulting. If it were easy and there were no real penalties for doing so, I would imagine that a lot more ST holders would do so, which would be an admin nightmare (someone would have to chase every defaulter) and could also significantly effect cashflow.

PB has made it clear on several occasions that adherence to the payment schedule is really important, e.g. :

"This does however rely on all supporters strictly maintaining their payments..."

http://www.seagulls.co.uk/tickets/seasontickets/

While I agree that it would be nice, and probably good practice, if the club had let him know in advance that his payment had been declined, I don't think they are obligated to do so. He signed a contract, taking advantage of an interest-free loan (which is what the DD scheme amounts to). He then broke the contract, so the club decided to not honour their part of the contract :shrug:

I'd have thought that if he pushed hard enough, they'd reduce the admin charge to £25 this time. If he defaulted again, expect him to pay the £50.

I have read through both the links supplied and unless I am blind I cannot see any mention of £50 fees and nor can I see any explanation of what happens to the £33 pounds he paid in excess to the £75's worth of Football he has watched so far?
 


Vegas Seagull

New member
Jul 10, 2009
7,782
He could have bought any ticket for £30/36 he didn't have to buy his own...
It's probably his fault re his account balance, DD's run over a period of days and do so starting variably according to working days. A snapshot glance on the day YOU think is the correct one is not always accurate
£50 is too high nevertheless, but checking bank statements is a worthwhile task
 


JBizzle

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2010
5,798
Seaford
It does seem harsh but I guess the club doesn't know whether it's a one-off or the start or regular defaulting so I can understand the lack of entry on that point.

On the other side, the £50 admin fee is high in the extreme. First port of call in contacting the club for a clear breakdown of events as to the default whilst also checking with the bank. THere may be cause to dispute the £50 fee in there somewhere.

As a minor side-bar, I don't think you can compare season tickit purchases with mortgages. Invariably mortgages require extensive background checks now to get one and they're assigned based on the applicants profitability. A season ticket is simply, "I want one" followed by the question "Can I afford one?".
 




fosters headband

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2003
5,158
Brighton
He could have bought any ticket for £30/36 he didn't have to buy his own...
It's probably his fault re his account balance, DD's run over a period of days and do so starting variably according to working days. A snapshot glance on the day YOU think is the correct one is not always accurate
£50 is too high nevertheless, but checking bank statements is a worthwhile task

I didn't think you could buy tickets on the day am I wrong and can I ask have you had a bank statement between the 1st and 20th September? I know I haven't
 


Goldstone1976

We Got Calde in!!
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patreon
Apr 30, 2013
13,765
Herts
I have read through both the links supplied and unless I am blind I cannot see any mention of £50 fees and nor can I see any explanation of what happens to the £33 pounds he paid in excess to the £75's worth of Football he has watched so far?

Point 1 of your response:

"If the Club attempts to use these details and a card or payment is declined: (i) the Direct Debit Ticket Holder's Smartcard shall be deactivated and the Stadium Access System will not permit the Direct Debit Ticket Holder entry to any Matches until the Club receives the relevant instalment payment(s) in full, or to purchase tickets on a match-by-match basis; and (ii) the Ticket Holder will be liable to pay a £10 administration charge, plus any resulting bank or other reasonable administrative charge or expense incurred or imposed by the Club."

Clause 3 of the DD T&Cs.

Point 2 of your response:

It was contained in one of the quotes in my first reply:

"In the event of such cancellation no refund will be paid in respect of any unexpired portion of the Season Ticket."

The club are contractually entitled to do what they've done, providing the £50 they are asking for contains at least £40 of "...bank or other reasonable administrative charge or expense incurred or imposed by the Club". Given that the phrase includes the word "imposed", you'd have to prove that the imposition (without necessarily being incurred) was unreasonable. I doubt you'd be able to do that.

Come on - you must know that your Grandson is at fault here. He signed a contracted, then broke it.

Could the club do something about it? Sure, and if he approaches them with a "mea culpa, it won't happen again" approach, I'm sure they'll bend significantly. If however he takes the attitude that he's done nothing wrong and it's all the club's fault, I suspect they'll be less sympathetic.
 



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