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Britain and our place in world football



Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,110
Surrey
This round of 16 has served to depress me. Without overstating the problem, it seems clear that we belong in a second tier group of nations. We were unlucky with our group and just as unlucky with the order in which we played our games - I still maintain that Costa Rica got lucky by playing Uruguay without Suarez, then playing Italy after Italy's draining match with England in the jungle - but the fact remains that we are now just another 2nd tier footballing nation. We are no better than Chile, the US, Mexico and a bunch of others. And these days you really wouldn't put your mortgage on us beating the likes of either Australia or Algeria.

Scotland have it even worse. They haven't qualified for a major tournament in decades, and haven't threatened to do so. I know they are small nation, but Europe is littered with successful small nations (the Baltics, Scandinavia, central Europe) and Scotland were one once. As for Wales, don't even go there.

I know people in this country put their club before country, BUT isn't it the job of the FA to ensure this is possible without damaging the national team? Instead we've got a situation where we just let in any old wealthy ownership group (however dodgy) and they buy the best players from elsewhere. Where is the joined-up thinking?

Watching the USA last night beaten but not disgraced, served to depress me. Their league seems Bundesliga-lite to me. Costs are reigned in, yet they have provided some decent players to the WC (predominantly for their home nation USA, but with a smattering of others), and it has benefitted the US national team. Germany is the same on a larger scale. Who has really benefitted from the Premier League or the terribly run Scottish alternative? Not the England or Scotland national teams, that's for sure. The money hasn't fed downwards. We don't have enough coaches, our facilities are a disgrace in parts of the country. It's shameful.

Honestly, I think there is a case for the government intervention now. I don't think the FA, SFA or FAW are fit for purpose.
 
Last edited:


Hotchilidog

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2009
8,645
Excellent post. The truth is that "English" football in particular is now all about finishing in the top four of the premier league and qualification for the champions league. The title is not even seen as the primary goal for a team anymore. It maybe possible to argue, that had English teams had less money then the national side would be better off as they would concentrate on developing players with a modicum of technical ability rather than indulging in real-life fantasy football where fat wallets can secure the finest talent from around the globe, no expense spared.

What we have seen from the likes of Costa Rica, USA, Switzerland, Mexico etc is that a good work ethic (one that we used to possess) and organisation can get you to a reasonable level in global competitions.

However that said, I do feel that some of the investment in younger player development is starting to pay off, the likes of Sterling, Sturridge, Barkely, Walcott, Wilshere, Oxlade Chamberlain, Llalana, Rodriguez etc are now being given the chance to shine, and I'd like to think their success will encourage those younger players further down the line to come through also. There is no doubt that we are a way off being a world force, but at least I can see a light at the end of the tunnel, even it is just a distant point at the moment.
 


As much as I agree Simster, and as much as this World Cup has reminded me how much I do actually care about the England team, in a few weeks time the regular season will have started, the memories will soon fade and we will be back to square one.

We will, or at least should, breeze through the Euro qualifiers, the press will hail a new beginning for the young lions, we will lap it all up and all will be well with the world again until the Tournament starts.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,264
you said it: we the fans put club before country. until the clubs cede control back to the Football Association, get rid of the Football League, the situation will never change.

but we fans don't want that either. yes we like the idea of terraces and cheap tickets of the Bundesliga, but we aren't prepared to accept the idea of "B" teams and hate the idea of franchises as they have in the US.
 


Scunner

Active member
Feb 26, 2012
271
Near Heathfield
International football is, unfortunately, second rate now anyway. The players know this, which is why players in second rate international teams play to their maximum to get a chance to move to a premium tier team in the three main leagues. It's a shame, but the WC is no longer the pinnacle of world football, the CL is.
 




Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
49,987
Goldstone
We don't have enough coaches, our facilities are a disgrace in parts of the country. It's shameful.
That's the crux of it. I don't think it matters that our top league has lots of money from abroad, or that we bring in foreign players, as long as money is also spent bringing young home grown talent on.

We should have rules that all teams have to field a few players from the nation they're in (ie, English), but I've forgotten what the law is on that.
 


maltaseagull

Well-known member
Feb 25, 2009
12,938
Zabbar- Malta
This round of 16 has served to depress me. Without overstating the problem, it seems clear that we belong in a second tier group of nations. We were unlucky with our group and just as unlucky with the order in which we played our games - I still maintain that Costa Rica got lucky by playing Uruguay without Suarez, then playing Italy after Italy's draining match with England in the jungle - but the fact remains that we are now just another 2nd tier footballing nation. We are no better than Chile, the US, Mexico and a bunch of others. And these days you really wouldn't put your mortgage on us beating the likes of either Australia or Algeria.

Scotland have it even worse. They haven't qualified for a major tournament in decades, and haven't threatened to do so. I know they are small nation, but Europe is littered with successful small nations (the Baltics, Scandinavia, central Europe) and Scotland were one once. As for Wales, don't even go there.

I know people in this country put their club before country, BUT isn't it the job of the FA to ensure this is possible without damaging the national team? Instead we've got a situation where we just let in any old wealthy ownership group (however dodgy) and they buy the best players from elsewhere. Where is the joined-up thinking?

Watching the USA last night beaten but not disgraced, served to depress me. Their league seems Bundesliga-lite to me. Costs are reigned in, yet they have provided some decent players to the WC (predominantly for their home nation USA, but with a smattering of others), and it has benefitted the US national team. Germany is the same on a larger scale. Who has really benefitted from the Premier League or the terribly run Scottish alternative? Not the England or Scotland national teams, that's for sure. The money hasn't fed downwards. We don't have enough coaches, our facilities are a disgrace in parts of the country. It's shameful.

Honestly, I think there is a case for the government intervention now. I don't think the FA, SFA or FAW are fit for purpose.



Sadly true but the Premier League and the fall out from the cash splashing around has created many football millionaires! (Not saying that's good but just that it is the way ) We seem to produce competitive National Teams up to U21 then it all goes wrong for some reason :shrug:
 


Gullflyinghigh

Registered User
Apr 23, 2012
4,279
Ignoring, for a bit, the many valid points raised already, I often find myself wondering whether the insular mentality of our players has something to do with it.

If you look at the teams in the quarter finals, many of them have some (or all) of their key players plying their trade abroad rather than domestically.

I don't know how much of a benefit it is for players to experience football elsewhere but it does seem that many English players would rather choose an average PL team rather than take the plunge and go abroad (Tom Ince, if the press has it right, would be an example) to make a name for themselves.

The only other major footballing nation I can think of that's as inward looking as us is Italy, and they're hardly a shining beacon of hope right now either...
 




drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,007
Burgess Hill
Ignoring, for a bit, the many valid points raised already, I often find myself wondering whether the insular mentality of our players has something to do with it.

If you look at the teams in the quarter finals, many of them have some (or all) of their key players plying their trade abroad rather than domestically.

I don't know how much of a benefit it is for players to experience football elsewhere but it does seem that many English players would rather choose an average PL team rather than take the plunge and go abroad (Tom Ince, if the press has it right, would be an example) to make a name for themselves.

The only other major footballing nation I can think of that's as inward looking as us is Italy, and they're hardly a shining beacon of hope right now either...

What makes you believe that other nations players chose to play in other leagues purely for the experience rather than the fact that where they go may well be the biggest pay deal on offer at the time they sign or that they see it as a stepping stone to a bigger pay cheque, ie putting yourself in the shop window of European football.
 


Monsieur Le Plonk

Lethargy in motion
Apr 22, 2009
1,858
By a lake
International football is, unfortunately, second rate now anyway. The players know this, which is why players in second rate international teams play to their maximum to get a chance to move to a premium tier team in the three main leagues. It's a shame, but the WC is no longer the pinnacle of world football, the CL is.

It may be just a modelling runway for some of these players to flirt with potential premiership and la liga suitors but I still believe that the WC is a far greater draw and spectacle for the fan than any old Champions League Final.
 


Tricky Dicky

New member
Jul 27, 2004
13,558
Sunny Shoreham
We are second rate, although unlucky with a tough group, most teams would have beaten us. I don't know the answer but the disconnct between the Prem and the FA, both with conpletelty diferent and contradictory agendas is not a good thing for our national team.

The prem has a good model and they do it well. They hsve many of the best worlds' players and make money. That is their business. Unfortunately having the best league in the world is mutually exclusive to hsving a good national squad.
 




vegster

Sanity Clause
May 5, 2008
27,867
This round of 16 has served to depress me. Without overstating the problem, it seems clear that we belong in a second tier group of nations. We were unlucky with our group and just as unlucky with the order in which we played our games - I still maintain that Costa Rica got lucky by playing Uruguay without Suarez, then playing Italy after Italy's draining match with England in the jungle - but the fact remains that we are now just another 2nd tier footballing nation. We are no better than Chile, the US, Mexico and a bunch of others. And these days you really wouldn't put your mortgage on us beating the likes of either Australia or Algeria.

Scotland have it even worse. They haven't qualified for a major tournament in decades, and haven't threatened to do so. I know they are small nation, but Europe is littered with successful small nations (the Baltics, Scandinavia, central Europe) and Scotland were one once. As for Wales, don't even go there.

I know people in this country put their club before country, BUT isn't it the job of the FA to ensure this is possible without damaging the national team? Instead we've got a situation where we just let in any old wealthy ownership group (however dodgy) and they buy the best players from elsewhere. Where is the joined-up thinking?

Watching the USA last night beaten but not disgraced, served to depress me. Their league seems Bundesliga-lite to me. Costs are reigned in, yet they have provided some decent players to the WC (predominantly for their home nation USA, but with a smattering of others), and it has benefitted the US national team. Germany is the same on a larger scale. Who has really benefitted from the Premier League or the terribly run Scottish alternative? Not the England or Scotland national teams, that's for sure. The money hasn't fed downwards. We don't have enough coaches, our facilities are a disgrace in parts of the country. It's shameful.

Honestly, I think there is a case for the government intervention now. I don't think the FA, SFA or FAW are fit for purpose.

Virtually every team in the round of 16 had a better team performance than we could have done had we gone through. The USA are just one example of a team who lack real superstars yet who perform as a team and give everything on the pitch in a professional manner. I think all of the group winners ( who all seem to have gone through ) have struggled to break down the well disciplined and organised runner up teams often needing extra time or penalties. I fear we would have been slaughtered in their position and therefore, I am retiring from supporting England, as my support seems to perpetuate the slide in to obscurity.

A factoid in The Times a few days ago summed it up for me..... " In the 11 World Cup Finals since England won the World Cup in 1966, Germany have always progressed further than England. "
 


Cowfold Seagull

Fan of the 17 bus
Apr 22, 2009
21,578
Cowfold
As much as I agree Simster, and as much as this World Cup has reminded me how much I do actually care about the England team, in a few weeks time the regular season will have started, the memories will soon fade and we will be back to square one.

We will, or at least should, breeze through the Euro qualifiers, the press will hail a new beginning for the young lions, we will lap it all up and all will be well with the world again until the Tournament starts.

That second paragraph is so so true. It never ceases to amaze me, how all so many blinkered people, at the start of any major international tournament go overboard with excitement, at the expectancy of seeing England do well.

Well l've got news for them, England won't do well. We are not a very good team, and until the system is completeley overhauled in this country, with major changes made to the coaching of young players at grass roots level, then the problems will gradually become worse and worse.

I don't hold mt breath.
 


Wozza

Shite Supporter
Jul 6, 2003
23,584
Online
The USA are just one example of a team who lack real superstars yet who perform as a team and give everything on the pitch in a professional manner.

The definition of "superstar" is pretty warped, especially in the Premier League, where many players are overpaid and over-rated.

Meanwhile, players like James Rodriguez are barely noticed by British fans/press.

He was sold to Monaco a year ago for £35m. And let's face it, he's 10x the player Rooney is.
 




Cheeky Monkey

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2003
22,953
Watching the USA and Belgique last night, I did ponder how either of those teams would cope in either the Premiership or the Championship.
 


BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
I felt the same last night, couldn't help but think that we are a some way behind USA and Belgium.

I watched the England under 17's and was impressed, they won their tournament in Malta and deservedly so, but a week later disappointed with the under 20's efforts.

USA have always produced good players for a generation, I remember only too well when 'Yanks' were never going to be accepted, we Brighton had a young kid called Peter Skouras who was American and was an apprentice for a while 1979'sh ( think he was funded by his Dad ) he was unfairly never taken seriously.

USA's real strength is how their own talent pool is complimented by their major sports, NFL, NHL NBA etc.

I have no doubt that they tap into those sports for all the psychology. motivational, sports science etc. that has always been 10 years ahead of the rest of the world.

They have become an acknowledged international team as have their players.
 


Wrong-Direction

Well-known member
Mar 10, 2013
13,395
We weren't unlucky! We weren't good enough, simple as that, stop making excuses.
 


Brovion

Well-known member
NSC Patreon
Jul 6, 2003
19,322
We've been second-tier since we first started playing competitive international football in 1950 - the only difference is now we recognise it. in 1950 we lost 1-0 to the USA in Belo Horizonte and that was a major shock. After all we were the nation that invented the game, so it follows we should have been really good at doesn't it? We weren't and never have been. In 2014 we drew 0-0 with Costa Rica in Belo Horizonte and people weren't that surprised. In the intervening years we've reached ONE final of an internatonal tournament (when we were at home), and if this World Cup is the one where the penny finally, finally drops then great.

So what to do? Leaving aside the standard knee-jerk calls to 'Change the manager and then we'll be better' the problems in our game are well known so I won't list them here, and the main debate is what is the most important. (For me it's kids coaching and getting rid of regimented teams and leagues, but others have different priorities).

But ..... apart from the people who've posted on this thread and a few other like-minded souils, does anyone really care? Club football is paramount in England, and it's NOT just the Premier League fans who put their team first. Every time there's a poll on here as to whether people would rather see England win the World Cup or Brighton get promoted the 'clubbers' win hands-down. Anyone who thinks like that can't complain when the Premier League puts the interests of itself and its members over that of the national side, it's exactly the same mindset.
 




Hiney

Super Moderator
Helpful Moderator
Jul 5, 2003
19,392
Penrose, Cornwall
The amount of money swilling around football in this country is destroying the game.

Players don't give a shit any more. Coonor Wickham had an average season. Sent out on loan because he wasn't good enough then scored a few goals at the arse end of the season. He's on over a MILLION quid a year. It's ****ing insane.

A player on £20,000 a week could have a nightmare, score 2 own goals and get sent off, but STILL pocket his £20k.

Until the money side of things is reined in, we've got no chance. Players measure their success by the size of their cars and how they splash their cash, rather than their performances.

Why can't their wages be properly performance-related?
 


teaboy

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
1,840
My house
I find it a bit weird that people still believe England are a good team anyway. When have we actually been good? 1966, fair enough. 1986/1990? Maybe. But we've never been consistently successful as a nation, even at a European level. There's far too much hype and expectation because someone invented some rules 150+ years ago. This means nothing - there is no entitlement to success.

What I find most frustrating is the FA's inability to plan anything for the future. Why is there no long-term plan for success? Why do they continue with the same ideas that have continually failed for the last however many years? Continuing to do the same thing but expecting different results is insanity.
 



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