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Yanks giving up their Passport over Tax.



Feb 23, 2009
22,976
Brighton factually.....
The number of Americans giving up their citizenship has rocketed this year - partly, it's thought, because of a new tax law that is frustrating many expats.

Goodbye, US passport.
That's not a concept that Americans contemplate lightly. But it's one that many of them seem to be considering - and acting on.
The number of expatriates renouncing their US citizenship surged in the second quarter of 2013, compared with the same period the year before - 1,131 cases to 189 in 2012. It's still a small proportion of the estimated six million Americans abroad, but it's a significant rise.

The list is compiled by the Federal Register and while no reasons are given, the big looming factor seems to be tax.
A new law called the Foreign Accounts Tax Compliance Act (Fatca) will, from 1 July next year, require all financial institutions around the world to report directly to the US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) all the assets and incomes of any US citizens with $50,000 (£31,000) on their books. The US could withhold 30% of dividends and interest payments due to the banks that don't comply.

It's an attempt by the US authorities to recover an estimated $100bn a year in unpaid taxes on US citizens' assets overseas. Unlike other countries, Americans are taxed not only as residents of the US but also as citizens, wherever they live.
Suddenly, some expats are waking up in a cold sweat. They have always had to file tax returns and disclose foreign accounts on a form called the FBAR, although in practice many didn't. But now Fatca means they have to be more rigorous or face huge fines, in the knowledge that the US authorities could know a lot more than they have in the past.

Many would say the IRS is only trying to get what it is owed, but critics say that in trying to track down the wealthy tax-dodgers, ordinary people are being dragged into an expensive and time-consuming form-filling nightmare. And for some, it's become too much.

Genevieve Besser
American in Germany
Bridget, who asked the BBC not to use her real name, gave up her US citizenship in 2011, 32 years after leaving for a new life in Scandinavia.
"This has nothing to do with avoiding taxes. I was never in danger of having to pay taxes in the US since I pay more here. The issue for me was that it was becoming harder and harder to follow the tax code and comply. It was difficult already but when I knew Fatca was coming, I thought, 'Do I want to go through with it anymore?'"
She felt threatened even if she did everything to fulfil her responsibilities, she says. A simple loyalty card at the local grocery store caused her anxiety when she realised it was linked to a bank account she never knew she had.
It became so complicated to do her tax return that she turned to professionals, at an annual cost of nearly $2,000 (£1,250), with the prospect of Fatca raising the price to $5,000. Also, fewer tax lawyers were taking on American clients, she says, and some banks were even turning away American money.
"In the end, I sleep better now knowing that I no longer have to worry about the US requirements. I will never be able to live or own property in the US but I can visit and that's enough for me."

Socialite Denise Rich Bridget, who runs an editing and translation company, says her strong emotional bond with the US has been frayed.
"I've enjoyed being an American even though I haven't lived there since I was young. I identified with America so I felt angry that I had to get to this point where it wasn't viable to keep my citizenship anymore.
"When you're an American living in America, it's one thing but when you live abroad in another country, in certain ways that feeling becomes even stronger because you realise that things that you think are individual characteristics are actually national ones so you identify even more strongly with your nationality.
"I used to always introduce myself as American but not now, although I will always be American in my heart even though I won't carry the passport. I will still celebrate Thanksgiving and 4 July."
She says the tax issue is the biggest topic of conversation among the expat Americans she knows. And tax lawyers in the US who deal with people living abroad say it has become a huge issue.



Looks like the wife will become British then, She will be having her very own Brighton Tea Party :blush:
 




Tooting Gull

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
11,033
If this story is supposed to be making me feel sorry for these individuals, it has failed.

Just pay the tax you owe, quit squealing, end of story. 'My emotional bond with my country has been frayed, I'm having to fill out some forms and pay money like everyone else, it's awful'. Oh do f**k off.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
59,464
The Fatherland
The point is that US citizens are taxed even if they're not living in the US. Only the greedy unsympathetic imperialist US government would do something like that.

Quite.
 


brightn'ove

cringe
Apr 12, 2011
9,137
London
The point is that US citizens are taxed even if they're not living in the US. Only the greedy unsympathetic imperialist US government would do something like that.

This.

Not only that, but they are blackmailing banks in to handing over details, very very shady.
 


hans kraay fan club

The voice of reason.
Helpful Moderator
Mar 16, 2005
61,256
Chandlers Ford
The point is that US citizens are taxed even if they're not living in the US. Only the greedy unsympathetic imperialist US government would do something like that.

But does the quote from 'Bridget' not suggest that they are only liable for US rates (ie she would pay none as the rates in her country of residence are higher anyway). Presumably this is really targeted at those hiding their cash in tax havens.
 




Cesar Chavez

Active member
Apr 17, 2012
362
California
Of course fod for a great number of US citizens overseas it has no impact if they aren't working, are a student, earn below a certain threshold etc. still it is a policy that is unusual to citizens of other countries.

Also all US citizens and permanent residents must declare all foerirn earning, foreign savings and investmentments, including pensions on an annual basis.
 


Shropshire Seagull

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2004
8,496
Telford
The point is that US citizens are taxed even if they're not living in the US. Only the greedy unsympathetic imperialist US government would do something like that.

I would hazard a guess that you have not had any personal financial dealings outside of the UK - investments / property / banking.

The key is in which county an individual is "tax domicile". I am UK tax domicile which means my tax base is that set by HMRC.
There are many [I think it runs to the 100's] of countries that share personal finance data [not only the greedy unsympathetic imperialist US government]. So the IRS [in the USA] send annual details to HMRC [in the UK] of my banking and any interest earned in the USA. Also, when I sold my property in Florida, the capital gains tax was based on the UK rate but netted off.

So, its not duplicate tax, only tax owed as if you were "at home". The IRS take what's owed to them under their tax rules and then HMRC adjust so that what you finally pay matched what you would have paid as if at home.

Monaco and Switzerland both have low tax regimes and so high earners can benefit from being tax domicile to these countries. Then, no matter where they earned their money in the world, their home tax base rates will be where they are tax domicile.

So for US citizen working outside the US, if they are US tax domicile, whatever they earn, wherever they earn it, tax will be paid at the prevailing US tax rate [eventually]. If you earn in a higher tax regime, you will get some back, if you earn in a lower tax regime, you will have to cough up some more to the IRS. If you don't like the tax you pay, look to change your tax domicile.
 


cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,744


Hmmm, at least the US Government is democratically elected by the US electorate.......................

http://www.pwc.be/en/financial-serv...information-exchange-between-eu-members.jhtml

Just to be clear.............

"The proposal, if agreed to in its current form, would result in the exchange of information to commence in 2015 and include information related to the 2014 tax year, parallel to FATCA. This is a challenging timeline and developments should be monitored very closely."
 




Hmmm, at least the US Government is democratically elected by the US electorate.......................

http://www.pwc.be/en/financial-serv...information-exchange-between-eu-members.jhtml

Just to be clear.............

"The proposal, if agreed to in its current form, would result in the exchange of information to commence in 2015 and include information related to the 2014 tax year, parallel to FATCA. This is a challenging timeline and developments should be monitored very closely."

Have you read the Commission's proposal?

I'd have thought, as a Council Directive (an amendment to an existing one), that it will be for the European Parliament and Member States (via their elected governments) to consider/modify/vote/adopt/reject.
Assuming the Directive is adopted then won't it then be for the UK Parliament then to "decide" whether to transfer into UK law? "Decide" presumably being, late one evening, to nod through (or not - ha! ha!) an anonymous Statutory Instrument that no-one, except the civil servants who drafted it, has bothered to read - still that's the Mother of Parliaments for you.

Just to be clear......
Isn't your quote just some client advice from PWC about likely implementation timings?

Btw do you ever post anything that's even vaguely Albion related?
 


cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,744
Have you read the Commission's proposal?

I'd have thought, as a Council Directive (an amendment to an existing one), that it will be for the European Parliament and Member States (via their elected governments) to consider/modify/vote/adopt/reject.
Assuming the Directive is adopted then won't it then be for the UK Parliament then to "decide" whether to transfer into UK law? "Decide" presumably being, late one evening, to nod through (or not - ha! ha!) an anonymous Statutory Instrument that no-one, except the civil servants who drafted it, has bothered to read - still that's the Mother of Parliaments for you.

Just to be clear......
Isn't your quote just some client advice from PWC about likely implementation timings?

Btw do you ever post anything that's even vaguely Albion related?


You may be surprised but yes I have read it, as I have plenty of others.

The EU FATCA is similar to other EU legislation such as the EU Savings Directive, Money Laundering Directive IV and MIFID II in that they all include significant disproportionate responsibilities on businesses in the EU to gather information on the wealth of its clients (i.e. EU citizens) which are passed over to the instruments of the state (or EU).

This motive (in my view is) deeply offensive of itself, as the legislation attacks the rights of privacy for millions of UK (and other EU) citizens who are legitimately managing their financial affairs. For example there are plans in MLD IV to have the beneficiaries of all trusts held on a public register, this would have a massive impact on the UK in particular because trust law is a key element of UK law (from buying a house to starting a business to making a will to investing in a pension). Whether you agree with all of this legislation or not, the one reality will be that all the costs for this will be heaped on the consumer further increasing expenses, and in the case of financial affairs diminishing growth.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...nt_data/file/258997/PM-letter-tax-evasion.pdf
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...to-publish-details-of-wills-and-property.html

Even more grevious in my view is by pushing this kind of legislation through the EU it is largely concealed from the electorates, a point that I am sure the Governments of member states are quite happy with................they are not to blame right?

My post was to contrast the accusation that the US FATCA was US imperialism against the reality that exactly the same “imperialism” was alive and well in the EU.

As for the legislative process of EU Directives, I agree, however the design and transposition of EU law amongst EU institutions is very different to that of the US, and not least to how we have enacted law in the UK for hundreds of years………………..that issue is essentially about sovereignty, but I am sure you know about that.

BTW.............why are you bothered what and where I post?
 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
I would hazard a guess that you have not had any personal financial dealings outside of the UK - investments / property / banking.

The key is in which county an individual is "tax domicile". I am UK tax domicile which means my tax base is that set by HMRC.
There are many [I think it runs to the 100's] of countries that share personal finance data [not only the greedy unsympathetic imperialist US government]. So the IRS [in the USA] send annual details to HMRC [in the UK] of my banking and any interest earned in the USA. Also, when I sold my property in Florida, the capital gains tax was based on the UK rate but netted off.

So, its not duplicate tax, only tax owed as if you were "at home". The IRS take what's owed to them under their tax rules and then HMRC adjust so that what you finally pay matched what you would have paid as if at home.

Monaco and Switzerland both have low tax regimes and so high earners can benefit from being tax domicile to these countries. Then, no matter where they earned their money in the world, their home tax base rates will be where they are tax domicile.

So for US citizen working outside the US, if they are US tax domicile, whatever they earn, wherever they earn it, tax will be paid at the prevailing US tax rate [eventually]. If you earn in a higher tax regime, you will get some back, if you earn in a lower tax regime, you will have to cough up some more to the IRS. If you don't like the tax you pay, look to change your tax domicile.

It used to be the case for UK ex pats to be paid tax free as long as they spent less than 6 weeks back in the UK. It may have changed since the 80s. Someone I knew worked for British Aerospace in Saudi, and that was the case.
 




You may be surprised but yes I have read it, as I have plenty of others.

The EU FATCA is similar to other EU legislation such as the EU Savings Directive, Money Laundering Directive IV and MIFID II in that they all include significant disproportionate responsibilities on businesses in the EU to gather information on the wealth of its clients (i.e. EU citizens) which are passed over to the instruments of the state (or EU).

This motive (in my view is) deeply offensive of itself, as the legislation attacks the rights of privacy for millions of UK (and other EU) citizens who are legitimately managing their financial affairs. For example there are plans in MLD IV to have the beneficiaries of all trusts held on a public register, this would have a massive impact on the UK in particular because trust law is a key element of UK law (from buying a house to starting a business to making a will to investing in a pension). Whether you agree with all of this legislation or not, the one reality will be that all the costs for this will be heaped on the consumer further increasing expenses, and in the case of financial affairs diminishing growth.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...nt_data/file/258997/PM-letter-tax-evasion.pdf
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...to-publish-details-of-wills-and-property.html

Even more grevious in my view is by pushing this kind of legislation through the EU it is largely concealed from the electorates, a point that I am sure the Governments of member states are quite happy with................they are not to blame right?

My post was to contrast the accusation that the US FATCA was US imperialism against the reality that exactly the same “imperialism” was alive and well in the EU.

As for the legislative process of EU Directives, I agree, however the design and transposition of EU law amongst EU institutions is very different to that of the US, and not least to how we have enacted law in the UK for hundreds of years………………..that issue is essentially about sovereignty, but I am sure you know about that.

BTW.............why are you bothered what and where I post?

I'm off to the game now but might get back later. I understand your cynicism about government motives but this legislation will have to be passed by the UK Parliament to be brought into Law in the UK - I don't think you can have it both ways, surely you have your sovereignty if it goes through as an SI, like most UK legislation? If you are implying that the SI system is flawed (cf conceals from the electorate) then I might agree, albeit for different reasons?

Personally, I'm not bothered what or where you post but it strikes me as slightly odd that you seem never say anything about the Albion. Your fixation with always (seemingly) posting about UK national sovereignty, particularly wrt the EU could be classed as trolling - however, maybe you're a personal mate of Bozza's, in which case I'd expect a different set of local "rules/tolerances" to apply.
 


cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,744
I'm off to the game now but might get back later. I understand your cynicism about government motives but this legislation will have to be passed by the UK Parliament to be brought into Law in the UK - I don't think you can have it both ways, surely you have your sovereignty if it goes through as an SI, like most UK legislation? If you are implying that the SI system is flawed (cf conceals from the electorate) then I might agree, albeit for different reasons?

Personally, I'm not bothered what or where you post but it strikes me as slightly odd that you seem never say anything about the Albion. Your fixation with always (seemingly) posting about UK national sovereignty, particularly wrt the EU could be classed as trolling - however, maybe you're a personal mate of Bozza's, in which case I'd expect a different set of local "rules/tolerances" to apply.


As already indicated my initial post on this thread was drawing attention to the FACT that the EU was playing the same imperialist games as the US, a position clearly contrary to some posters understanding.

Regarding EU law making, democracy and UK sovereignty, it is an undeniable FACT that UK laws are being driven from the European Commission, and whilst I understand that directives are implemented via corresponding SI, this point still ignores the shift in executive power from the elected representatives in Westminster to the byzantine political arrangements that exist in Brussels et al.

With specific regard to EU FATCA and other similar laws they drive a coach and horses through aspects of “civil protection” that UK citizens have previously enjoyed, and is just another example of how far the legislative frameworks have moved over the last 20 years without a by your leave from our political classes.

I think there is a common misconception that the EU is a benign and benevolent institution that we can trust more than our domestic politicians, frankly as EU FATCA and other laws demonstrate we shouldn’t trust either.

I’m glad you are not bothered by my posts, albeit your responses in this thread and your apparent concern about my fixations and historical posts tells an entirely different story.

As for trolling I don’t think so…………..I am more happy to debate rationally and reasonably; surely that is what these boards are about (whether BHA or otherwise). You may disagree with my views, however, as per Orwell, during times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act. Wise words indeed.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
59,464
The Fatherland
Hmmm, at least the US Government is democratically elected by the US electorate.

Jesus, nothing compares to your single-issue zeal. I bet I could pick any word at random and you could weave an EU based sentence out of it. Correction, you could weave about 7 sides of A4 out of it. You dont do one-liners do you?
 


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