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Council Tax Referendum
- Thread starter wellquickwoody
- Start date
I was quite surprised there wasn't as well. Oh, it's a completely potty idea ( the referendum not the thread ).
Butch Willykins
Well-known member
Genuine question, how much would it cost to hold a referendum?
- Thread starter
- #4
By tagging the referendum onto the European elections in May it will cost a paltry 230k apparently. Whilst the cost of resurfacing Madeira Drive, part of the city's history, infrastructure and home of many events, is claimed to be too expensive to justify by the Greens at a mahoosive 100k.
A survey by The Arsegas shows that the proposed rise in council tax is very, very likely to be rejected by the electorate. Maybe the Greens should forget their political dogma, and do what is best for the city and its' permanent residents for a change.
The Large One
Who's Next?
About £100,000.
Councils are not allowed to raise their Council Tax by more than 2% without a referendum. Last year, Brighton & Hove City Council - which is the hardest hit council in the south east regarding government cuts - raised taxes by 1.96%. Many councils did the same thing. Eric Pickles called that anti-democratic, and wants to make th threshold for a referendum 1.5%. M
They also have the additional bribe of if they freeze the tax, they get £2m. It doesn't cover the tax freeze. If the £2m is there, why can't councils have it anyway and be able to raise taxes?
Councils up and down the country have been wanting to hold a referendum to break free of the shackles Eric Pickle imposes. Having him as local government minister is like having King Herod in charge of Mothercare. Brighton & Hove City Council is the first to be standing up to Pickles' bullying, and it's said many councils are hiding behind this, waiting to see what happens here.
The tragic thing is that this will probably be seen as a 'Greens v Others' referendum, because that's as far as some people's politics go ('... poxy Greens with their 20mph and their cycle lanes and the tree-huigging...'), without debating the actual issues - like for instance the fact the the gvernment is screwing down local governments generally, and Brighton & Hove specfically, and we just take it - which means it may well be defeated. The interesting thing is that Labour nationally are interested in Brighton & Hove doing this, Labour locally, aren't.
Interesting comment by Simon Jenkins, himself hardly a friend of the Greens.
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...revolution-democracy-eric-pickles-green-party
I'd be delighted to have an opportunity to vote on Council Tax in a referendum. It means having a direct, if small, say. However, I'd like to hear all sides of the argument before deciding which way to vote. There may, for instance, be an alternative way so re-define the budget, but neither Labour nor the Tories have come up with their plans so far.
The Large One
Who's Next?
Don't forget, the Arsegas is VERY anti-Green, to the point of having written some downright lies about them. It is a local version of the Daily Mail, and is one of the most complained about ocal paper, according to the PCC.
Two, the readership, is about 4% of Brighton residents, are naturally that way inclined. In terms of numbers, it's about as relevant as NSC is to 'all' Brighton fans.
If it's a barometer on people's feelings you're after, the Arsegas is not it.
- Thread starter
- #8
I'm not sure that the Argue actually is anti green, but I do take your point about its' relevance these days. I rather doubt that anyone under the age of 40 actually reads it.
As far as I am aware, their survey was carried out in 2 differing ways. The first via the newspaper itself, asking readers to respond via text, post, or online, the second by a random street survey of peoples opinions. The two methods did show differing levels of opinions, but both displayed that the overwhelming majority of those asked were against the proposed 4.75% increase.
Until another organisation is prepared to undertake a similar survey The Argue figures are the best we have.
- Jan 3, 2012
- 16,594
Having read the Simon Jenkins article yesterday, I was going to respond to this as well, but you have said everything I was going to say. I have responded to another thread about the Lib Dems in coalition and about common sense policies not driven by ideology. This to me, from the point of view of Eric Pickles, seems to be entirely ideologically driven, and his intention is to smash local government in to submission. So much for localism.
Butch Willykins
Well-known member
Surely it's time for an NSC poll?
The Large One
Who's Next?
I don't disagree on that score, aside from the Argus is anti-Green. VERY anti-Green.
I too suspect that the referendum, if it goes ahead, will be defeated - but I'd like to think it would be because a better way of budgeting the city was found, rather than on polarised party political lines.
At least, if there is a referendum, the Argus is bound by laws as to what and how it can report it.
Publius Ovidius
Well-known member
Turkey's voting for Christmas.
Postman Pat
Well-known member
I think the referendum is a waste of cash, personally I would put a tick box on the council tax form:
Would you like to make an additional contribution of £20 p.m. to pay for adult social care, for those that do ringfence the cash and use it accordingly add that to the 230k for the referendum and that should cover it.
If they are going to do a referendum they should ensure that only people that pay it are actually allowed to vote in it.
Would you like to make an additional contribution of £20 p.m. to pay for adult social care, for those that do ringfence the cash and use it accordingly add that to the 230k for the referendum and that should cover it.
If they are going to do a referendum they should ensure that only people that pay it are actually allowed to vote in it.
lifer
New member
- May 6, 2013
- 5
Is it not that the Council are picking an emotive topic on which to call the referendum? Jason Kitkat's Argue quote is that the extra money was needed to pay for services for elderly and disabled people. It's not clear if the 'extra' is 4.75% or just the 2.75% above the cap. Either way, the figure is an awesome sum as a proportion of the whole budget which, I think, is £700+m.
But why is it just adult social care carrying the load?
But why is it just adult social care carrying the load?
Machiavelli
Well-known member
Oh dear. What's motivating your question is what's more important, or what should we value more, money or democracy. The answer to this question is somewhere between £100K and £230K. The Argus decides to only inform its readers of the latter figure, which seems to support The Large One's claim that it is anti-Green, not to mention anti-democratic and small-minded. I would imagine that the former figure is more likely, if the referendum is combined with the EU elections.
Democracy hasn't been doing too well over the last three or four decades in developed western countries, and referenda are only a small way in which to tackle this developing democratic deficit. This referendum is a good move for the following reasons:
-- as The Large One and DavidinSouthampton have pointed out, Pickles has continued to hollow out local government, a process started by Thatcher. This referendum is the first challenge to Pickles' agenda.
-- when the Coalition drew up their cuts, they sought to offload a substantial chunk of the responsibility of these cuts on to local councils. This is what they gleefully called 'devolving the axe', which is a particularly cowardly act by this bunch of bullies that form our national government.
-- the recent history of local council elections in B&HA has been very tight, a kind of three-way battle between the Tories, Labour and the Greens. This has seen either coalitions, ad-hoc groupings, and minority councils. All of this makes getting policies through difficult. Being a minority council, the Greens cannot claim that they have sufficient support -- either on the council, or among the citizens who elect -- for either keeping in line with Pickles' agenda of cutting council budgets, or of raising council tax so that vital services can be provided. As a consequence, turning to the electorate to make this decision, particularly if it can be done more cheaply by combining it with another (ie EU) election, seems the best policy.
-- when we elect councillors and/or the parties they represent, they provide a programme or manifesto of policies that they want to implement. Inevitably, citizens will disagree with some of these, and agree with others. So, on certain issues, especially when situations become precarious (I'm referring to council budgets here) it seems reasonable that they should turn to the electorate for their verdict. This burden falls on the Greens even more because one of their long-standing policies has been to seek to involve, and respond to, the electorate more than the other parties.
I know that this position will generate a response. I will only respond to something that's dealing with one of the specific points raised, or the general point I began with, which is money or democracy.
Butch Willykins
Well-known member
I was just interested that's all. If you think that's important then carry on.
Would you like to know what I'm having for lunch too?
- Jan 3, 2012
- 16,594
Are not Adult and Social care two things that a Local Authority has specific and statutory demands made of it on. In other words, if a certain set of circumstances occurs in relation to a specific individual, then they have to take certain action? I may be wrong, but if this is the case, these are things where it is difficult to make cuts, even though your grants are being cut.
Publius Ovidius
Well-known member
Isn't it about priorities?
I would have thought that adult social care was more important than spunking huge amounts of money on cycle lanes that are for a significant minority of the population.
Still time will tell. Maybe trying to get people on to cycles is better use of scarce resources?
I would have thought that adult social care was more important than spunking huge amounts of money on cycle lanes that are for a significant minority of the population.
Still time will tell. Maybe trying to get people on to cycles is better use of scarce resources?
In my experience this statement is complete rubbish.
Over the last few years I've had reason to contact a number of councillors across the political spectrum to deal with concerns I held personally and to assist in dealing with neighbourhood issues. Without fail, every time I have contacted both Labour and Conservative councillors they have responded quickly, politely and constructively. This can not be said of the Green councillors I have contacted.
One very good example was the attempt to increase rents for allotments. Labour and Conservative members responded immediately to my concerns and I got emails and phone updates from them. The Green councillors ? Not a word, not even an acknowledgement that I had contacted them ....... UNTIL ..... after the budget was rejected and allotment rents weren't increased. What I got then was a diatribe of emails from a number of the Green councillors accusing the Labour and Conservative councillors of ganging up against the Greens, lying and not understanding what they were trying to do. No addressing of my concerns at all. They did decided, for some bizarre reason, to copy in a number of Labour and Conservative councillors.
So in my experience the Greens only want to know your opinion if it supports their policies and plans. If these policies and plans are defeated then they turn into child like creatures throwing around accusations of being bullied etc.
EDIT - and you only needed to watch the ridiculous speech that Jason Kitcat gave at the first Green budget council meeting to realise he's a rude and arrogant prat who seems to think sixth form common room politics works in the big wide world.