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Andy Flower-v-Kevin Pietersen.





KZNSeagull

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
19,694
Wolsingham, County Durham
He may be an abrasive character and it would appear that not many people get on with him, but all the time that he is the highest run scorer in the team, he has to stay. Vaughan has described him as a "genius" this morning. There is an article on the BBC (http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cricket/25638143) with 4 people (Vaughan, Harmison, Simon Hughes and Tuffers) picking their new look England team, and KP is all of them.

So if either has to go, it has to be Flower.
 


Billy the Fish

Technocrat
Oct 18, 2005
17,472
Haywards Heath
I hate all this nonsense that KP gets accused of not being a team player. He gives his wicket away at silly times but I don't think he's being selfish, he just gets on a roll and doesn't know when to stop. His ego makes him think he's never going to get out and that is both his strength and his weakness, as is often the case in cricket.

Contrast that with players like Cook or Trott who I've seen poodle along at 2 runs an over to get their hundred when the game really needs to be sped up to get a result. Those types of incidents never seem to get mentioned.
 


keaton

Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
Nov 18, 2004
9,630
At the moment it's all gossip.

I'm not sure Flower has much of a leg to stand on.
He's looked like the one on the verge of quitting for about a year now, it would need a long term commitment from him before a debate was started.
Also the rumour is that a row about Pietersen's dismissals. Flower and his batting coaches credentials as batting tutors arent particularly high at the moment, presumably all the other players heeded their advice which is why he ended up top run scorer.
As for changing room clashes I would hope the coach or captain might take some responsility, as they've clearly not spent much time coaching or thinking about squad selection recenlty.

There was a good bit in the paper yesterday by (Stephen Brenkley I think). Flower's been in charge for 5 years and given twenty people call-up. Of them only Trott is a proper success. his core seven were inherited.
He seems to have chuffed up Finn, discarded an awful lot of batsmen and created a team that all lost form and fight at the worst time possible.
 


The Wizard

Well-known member
Jul 2, 2009
18,383
I hate all this nonsense that KP gets accused of not being a team player. He gives his wicket away at silly times but I don't think he's being selfish, he just gets on a roll and doesn't know when to stop. His ego makes him think he's never going to get out and that is both his strength and his weakness, as is often the case in cricket.

Contrast that with players like Cook or Trott who I've seen poodle along at 2 runs an over to get their hundred when the game really needs to be sped up to get a result. Those types of incidents never seem to get mentioned.

This
 




Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,719
Hove
I honestly don't know how Flower and most of his staff can remain in their jobs. The writing was on the wall 12 months ago in NZ. We've been directionless, unable to select an opener, and unable to deal with players dropping out of form. Our handling of new players has also been poor. Established players seemingly untouchable whereas as new and young players shovelled around the order and dropped after a single game.

It's been nothing short of shambolic. The worst performance in Australia in history, and yet we went there as favourites. There has been a catastrophic break down of communication, coaching, strategy and collective responsibility within the setup. I don't see how Flower can stay.
 


Martlet

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2003
679
There's truth in Keaton's comments, many of the best, boldest selection decisions were Peter Moores' (Swann, Anderson, Prior, Sidebottom, Bresnan, Onions etc). Incidentally Moores first picked Trott too - in 2008 vs the West Indies.

That said, I think Flower's been an excellent coach and leader - prior to the last 6 months, he presided over a period when England batters have flourished. If he's guilty of anything it's becoming too predictable and complacent, which Australia exploited to the full. He has also surrounded himself with a lot of like-minded people (Cook, Gooch etc). Time will tell whether he has the ability to rebuild.

Pietersen's a destructive batter, but you would be mad to build a team around him - we tried that before. Remind me again who engineered Moores' departure and then tried to undermine his captain to the opposition?
 






MJsGhost

Remembers
NSC Patreon
Jun 26, 2009
4,411
East
For all but the squad and England management, this whole topic is subject to rumour, inference (at best) and plain old speculation, but there is enough consistency in the rumours to suggest that KP’s presence unsettles others in the team.
I certainly don’t have any inside info, but don’t think it’s as simple as having to pick a guy because he has the highest average. Even if that one player will get you 15 more runs per innings than the next best batsman, if his presence means the rest of the team (or a significant part of it) is just 10% off their game, the net result is detrimental to the team as a whole.

I’d personally favour getting rid of both Flower and KP – a fresh start all round. If a suitable replacement can be found, I’d also be in favour of a new captain. Cook just seems too conservative and, frankly, too nice. However, I don’t really see a viable alternative right now – Broad would be the obvious contender with his T20 role, but I don’t think he’s ready.
 


keaton

Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
Nov 18, 2004
9,630
To see the influence of coaching input on a team, just look at the transformation of the Aussies, since Darren Lehman stepped in.

Flower seems to have had his day.

The other thing is in Watson and Warner they have two moody, egotistical attacking batsmen prone to giving their wickets away cheaply, neither of whom have great reputations for team players. But Lehmann has tolerated this and seems to have got the best out of them.
Even Clarke a few years ago had a reputation as being a selfish and arrogant loner
 


Badger

NOT the Honey Badger
NSC Patreon
May 8, 2007
12,751
Toronto
Why is Gooch never mentioned in these debates? It's our woeful batting that has got us into this situation and as the batting coach, surely he has to take a big chunk of responsibility.
 




keaton

Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
Nov 18, 2004
9,630
Why is Gooch never mentioned in these debates? It's our woeful batting that has got us into this situation and as the batting coach, surely he has to take a big chunk of responsibility.

He's the one person who should definetely go for me.
I can see arguments for and against getting rid of Flowers, Cook as captain, or retire KP, Prior and Anderson.

I can't see any reason for keeping Gooch. It's a bit odd anyway we seem to lumbered with Essex coaching staff, as they've done f all of note as a county
 


coagulantwolf

New member
Jun 21, 2012
716
If I was Pietersen, I would 100% retire from England. I would just go where the money is an take it; because he just gets slated in the media regardless of what he does.

Not a team player? One of his innings the bloke was on 49, could have easily knocked a single anywhere in the ground to notch up another 50, but instead was caught on the boundary going for a big hit! Sure he got out, but he was trying to score big runs because he was batting with a very fragile tail at the time. He was trying to score big runs whilst he could, not just getting his 50 and letting the tail enders then deal with it. The intention there shows me he is a team player.

If he bats slow, he's told to play his aggressive game. If he gets out playing a big shot, he's slated for batting too aggressively. He was our top scorer in the series! Most of the other batsmen should be getting more stick. Besides, I wonder how he feels like trying to bat properly and just seeing wickets tumble at the other end. You gotta be thinking to yourself 'what is the point when these blokes are getting out for fun'.

He clearly is not wanted or involved in tactics on the field, so why should he hang around? Go use his talent where he is actually wanted (coincidentally where the money is!). Overall I think Pietersen has been treated disgracefully by England and the media.
 


Stumpy Tim

Well-known member
Selection on this tour has been nothing short of scandalous. Heads should roll, and [MENTION=6625]Badger[/MENTION] is right - Gooch needs to go.

1. What has James Taylor done wrong? He played for Sussex against the Ozzies to prove he can score runs against the best. He scores a ton, and then doesn't get in the team for the Ashes test or even the touring party
2. We have the best wicket-keeper/batsman in the world. Yes he has had a poor series, but you don't drop a world class player like that - especially for someone like Bairstow who has proved he's not up to it and isn't a wicket-keeper
3. Carberry/Root. Dropping Root down the order showed a lack of confidence in Root, and Carberry was never going to be a decent option.
4. Monty - Can't bat or field. He hasn't been an test-class spinner for a long time. Why bother?
5. Finn/Rankin/Tremlett - What was the point in bringing all three of them? Finn has been treated appallingly & should have played the last two tests once the series was over. Rankin is just TOILET

This tour is a reminder on how England used to operate when we were the worst team in the world. Cook & Flower must both be held to account, and frankly Gooch needs to leave
 




Hiney

Super Moderator
Helpful Moderator
Jul 5, 2003
19,392
Penrose, Cornwall
Gooch was a player when it was ok to score at 2 runs an over in test matches and grind your way to a massive score. He didn't play at a time where there are 15 test matches and about a million ODIs in a year, giving the players no rest at all.

It's as much about managing the relentless slogging around the world without any down-time, as it is being out in the middle.

It's ridiculous that recently retired players like Michael Vaughan are in the commentary box, rather than in the dressing room, imparting their knowledge.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,719
Hove
Gooch was a player when it was ok to score at 2 runs an over in test matches and grind your way to a massive score. He didn't play at a time where there are 15 test matches and about a million ODIs in a year, giving the players no rest at all.

It's as much about managing the relentless slogging around the world without any down-time, as it is being out in the middle.

It's ridiculous that recently retired players like Michael Vaughan are in the commentary box, rather than in the dressing room, imparting their knowledge.

Now I don't mind criticisms of Gooch the coach, someone who has always been a slightly odd, enigmatic figure. But to besmirch his batting career is plainly ridiculous. 580 first class matches at an average of 49, 45,000 first class runs, 8900 test runs....I'll take that anyday of the week thanks!
 


MJsGhost

Remembers
NSC Patreon
Jun 26, 2009
4,411
East
Selection on this tour has been nothing short of scandalous. Heads should roll, and [MENTION=6625]Badger[/MENTION] is right - Gooch needs to go.

1. What has James Taylor done wrong? He played for Sussex against the Ozzies to prove he can score runs against the best. He scores a ton, and then doesn't get in the team for the Ashes test or even the touring party
2. We have the best wicket-keeper/batsman in the world. Yes he has had a poor series, but you don't drop a world class player like that - especially for someone like Bairstow who has proved he's not up to it and isn't a wicket-keeper
3. Carberry/Root. Dropping Root down the order showed a lack of confidence in Root, and Carberry was never going to be a decent option.
4. Monty - Can't bat or field. He hasn't been an test-class spinner for a long time. Why bother?
5. Finn/Rankin/Tremlett - What was the point in bringing all three of them? Finn has been treated appallingly & should have played the last two tests once the series was over. Rankin is just TOILET

This tour is a reminder on how England used to operate when we were the worst team in the world. Cook & Flower must both be held to account, and frankly Gooch needs to leave

I'd agree with every bit of that apart from #2.

I have it from a reliable sauce (family member) that Prior is looking at a last big pay day in the IPL, which would mean retiring from the England set-up. It's certainly not a done deal apparently - it will all depend upon a number of variables - but it is at least an option being considered.

With that being the case, using a couple of dead rubbers to see if Bairstow is ready to step up isn't a bad idea. It's worth remembering how hard Prior had to work to get his keeping up to scratch, so repeating that process with Bairstow is entirely feasible.
 


Tricky Dicky

New member
Jul 27, 2004
13,558
Sunny Shoreham
Now I don't mind criticisms of Gooch the coach, someone who has always been a slightly odd, enigmatic figure. But to besmirch his batting career is plainly ridiculous. 580 first class matches at an average of 49, 45,000 first class runs, 8900 test runs....I'll take that anyday of the week thanks!

I don't see any criticism of Goochs' batting career at all in what Hiney said, just pointed out that he played in a different era. That's how I read it, anyway.
 




keaton

Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
Nov 18, 2004
9,630
I'd agree with every bit of that apart from #2.

I have it from a reliable sauce (family member) that Prior is looking at a last big pay day in the IPL, which would mean retiring from the England set-up. It's certainly not a done deal apparently - it will all depend upon a number of variables - but it is at least an option being considered.

With that being the case, using a couple of dead rubbers to see if Bairstow is ready to step up isn't a bad idea. It's worth remembering how hard Prior had to work to get his keeping up to scratch, so repeating that process with Bairstow is entirely feasible.

But Prior was out of form all of last year for Sussex and England. Why didn't they pick a proper reserve keeper rather than a batsmen (who'd they lost faith in) who can keep a bit.
 


Mo Gosfield

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2010
6,276
Now I don't mind criticisms of Gooch the coach, someone who has always been a slightly odd, enigmatic figure. But to besmirch his batting career is plainly ridiculous. 580 first class matches at an average of 49, 45,000 first class runs, 8900 test runs....I'll take that anyday of the week thanks!


Plus, his 154 v West Indies at Headingly was recently voted the greatest Test innings of all time.
 



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