Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

Sport as a spectator experience - Simon Barnes in The Times today



The Sock of Poskett

The best is yet to come (spoiler alert)
Jun 12, 2009
2,802
The man talks a lot of sense ... even if the dynamics of a rugby crowd are a little different to a football crowd. Thoughts?

Loud but far from proud at Twickenham

The trouble with attending live sports matches is that the people responsible for staging them have lost faith in sport. They no longer believe that sport works as a spectator experience. So they fill it up with excitement as phoney as a whore’s smile.

At Twickenham I’d prefer to abseil in two seconds before kick-off, as curious representatives of the military often do, for reasons that elude me (mad on the military, Twickenham). That way I’d avoid the literally deafening music over the PA that means you have to shout hoarse, curt sentences if you wish to communicate with your neighbour, and I’d miss the operatic soprano wheeled out freezing to death in a tarty frock to sing the National Anthem with all three Vs on full show — vim, vibrato and volume.

And then comes the exhortation to shout for “YOUR ENGLAND”, and there’s a lot of explosions. Calm down, dear, it’s just a bloody rugby match. I’ll get excited by good sport, not by hysterical PA announcers and things that go bang. All this bunkum destroys rather than builds the sense of participation. What they want is “atmosphere” and they believe it is a synonym for “noise”. Which they believe they need for television.

This, of course, goes along with the kowtowing to the sponsor. They painted the pitch, as usual, with the sponsor’s logo because pleasing the sponsor is much more important than the dignity of the spectacle or the players — such as Marland Yarde — who ended up covered in paint and looking like the victims of ritual humiliation. Which they were. Sport is about sport. That’s why we’re all there.

So (1) try not to sell us something we’ve already bought, (2) try to remember we’re not stupid, (3) realise that we’re not all 8 years old and (4) remember players are more important than sponsors.
 






father_and_son

Well-known member
Jan 23, 2012
4,646
Under the Police Box
Disagree.

England games at Twickenham are watched largely by fans like me... I try to make the pilgrimage at least once a year for an England game, but by and large the club game passes me by without even noticing it. In the past 20 years I have seen club rugby twice (and those games were "show-piece" events [Prem Final plus a Christmas Big 3] rather than wet saturdays at the Stoop) but over the same time I have been to 20-30 Internationals.

Rugby is full of fans like me (ie everything I hate about part-time, arm chair, football fans) - often ex-military Captains (though I'm not), Tweed/Flat Cap wearing (but not me), pretend-farmer styled toss-pots (completely city-living some may say I am a toss pot) who are massively out of touch with the real game, but enjoy the "events".

Even the vast majority of grass-roots fans who get tickets for the game through their locals clubs, based on those I've met and know, largely form part of the same once-a-year brigade. They play and enjoy the game at a very local level, but pay to come to only the big games at Twickers.

With the "event" games come a certain over-the-top razzamatazz that ensures that everyone there realises that they are at an "event" rather than an average run-of-the-mill game. Hence the military band, opera singer, barrage balloons and fireworks that come with the "Twickenham Experience". It not, as Simon puts it, "just a bloody rugby match", its the one time this year I will have a day out to enjoy a South African Hog Roast sandwich on the walk through Twickenham and to have a beer or 4 [in my seat!] with a bunch of like-minded, once-a-year supporters who know all the words to Swing Low, but won't ever know another chant or song related to the game we're watching.

I am, by the way, completely unrepentant in my appreciation of rugby and will continue to always spend my saturdays at the Amex and take one weekend in Nov or Feb/March to enjoy a day out at an event match, enjoying the sunshine (for it is always sunny even when it rains at Twickenham) and fanfare that accompanies it, knowing full well that next saturday I'll be back in the wind and rain watching the Albion.
 


Disagree.

England games at Twickenham are watched largely by fans like me... I try to make the pilgrimage at least once a year for an England game, but by and large the club game passes me by without even noticing it. In the past 20 years I have seen club rugby twice (and those games were "show-piece" events [Prem Final plus a Christmas Big 3] rather than wet saturdays at the Stoop) but over the same time I have been to 20-30 Internationals.

I think you have a point, in that the article is written by someone who is paid to go to a large number of rugby matches every season, so may have some difficultly seeing it for what it is for most attendees - a big deal.

Having said that, I disagree with the rest of your post. When I go to Twickenham, or to Lords, or to Wembley, or to any major sporting event I am there to see the sport. I don't care one jot about the X factor contestants gig on the pitch before the game, the annoying woman wheeled out to sing the national anthem or the sky divers. If people want to do the 'showy' stuff then put it outside the ground and make it optional. It's the sport I'm there to see, and IMHO it would be much better off without all the other crap.
 


Icy Gull

Back on the rollercoaster
Jul 5, 2003
72,015
I was VERY VERY disappointed to hear try music, even if it was the Piranhas, during Saturday's game. This is the 1st time I have noticed it for an England International, has it been going on for a while? I watch most games so I would have thought I'd have heard something so completely tin pot before if it was played. It really pissed me off, which I think is a bit of an over reaction.
 




The Sock of Poskett

The best is yet to come (spoiler alert)
Jun 12, 2009
2,802
The thing I really identified with about Simon's piece is that an exciting top level sporting encounter – which an England rugby international clearly is, however the team happens to be playing at the time – really doesn't NEED all the hyped up fake razzamatazz organisers seem to think necessary. And in some cases, it can actually work AGAINST the atmosphere.

Similarly, there have been times at the Albion when you really want the last 10-15 mins before kick off to be a growing sense of the crowd's anticipation, chants from home and away, and that sense of excitement that needs no artificial stoking up. Let the people provide the atmosphere - it sure as heck isn't going to come from tinpot gimmicks.
 


Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
30,559
I think Simon Barnes has a point. Let the crowd make the noise.
 


drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,043
Burgess Hill
Load of pretentious guff. No one says he has to be in his seat to watch the pre match entertainment. Last time I was at Twickenham I understood there are plenty of bars to get your drinks. I wonder when was the last time he paid to go to a sports event? I wonder if, as chief sports writer for a national, that he has to join the throng on public transport! Half the point of all the extra curricular activity is to get people into the ground over a staggered period rather than in a 5 minute rush just before kick off. If he doesn't like it then don't go to big events.
 






father_and_son

Well-known member
Jan 23, 2012
4,646
Under the Police Box
I think you have a point, in that the article is written by someone who is paid to go to a large number of rugby matches every season, so may have some difficultly seeing it for what it is for most attendees - a big deal.

Having said that, I disagree with the rest of your post. When I go to Twickenham, or to Lords, or to Wembley, or to any major sporting event I am there to see the sport. I don't care one jot about the X factor contestants gig on the pitch before the game, the annoying woman wheeled out to sing the national anthem or the sky divers. If people want to do the 'showy' stuff then put it outside the ground and make it optional. It's the sport I'm there to see, and IMHO it would be much better off without all the other crap.

I see your point but I would suggest you are in a minority for Twickenham. Rugby at Twickenham seems unique in the British sporting calendar (that I have experienced) in that the proportion of people there who are "once-a-year" fans is so high - even a genuine once-a-year event, such as the British F1 GP is full of people who care about the sport all year round, but not for England at Twickenham. At Wembley, the vast majority (in my experience) are genuine football fans, who have taken time out from club football to support their country but rugby seems to attract a level of "fan" who only cares about the sport on one day of the year and expects the sport to recognise this "special" day. Can't speak for Lords as only ever made it as far as Hove, but even the midweek, flood-lit twenty20 games have a mix of one-off and regular fans.

I'm not saying that this is right or good for the sport, I'm just disagreeing with the original article's perspective that an England International at Twickenham is "just another bloody rugby match" for more 90+% of the crowd.
 








Icy Gull

Back on the rollercoaster
Jul 5, 2003
72,015
I see your point but I would suggest you are in a minority for Twickenham. Rugby at Twickenham seems unique in the British sporting calendar (that I have experienced) in that the proportion of people there who are "once-a-year" fans is so high - even a genuine once-a-year event, such as the British F1 GP is full of people who care about the sport all year round, but not for England at Twickenham. At Wembley, the vast majority (in my experience) are genuine football fans, who have taken time out from club football to support their country but rugby seems to attract a level of "fan" who only cares about the sport on one day of the year and expects the sport to recognise this "special" day. Can't speak for Lords as only ever made it as far as Hove, but even the midweek, flood-lit twenty20 games have a mix of one-off and regular fans.

I'm not saying that this is right or good for the sport, I'm just disagreeing with the original article's perspective that an England International at Twickenham is "just another bloody rugby match" for more 90+% of the crowd.

Are you suggesting that the fans at Twickenham for England rugby are not massive England rugby fans ( or massive fans of the opposition)? Because if you are I suggest that there are more dyed in the wool fanatical England fans at Twickenham than there are at most England football games at Wembley. Maybe I have misinterpreted your post though.

Given the complexity of rugby union rules, I doubt many would put it high on their list of wannadoos if they don't even understand the rules, which a casual fan would struggle with.
 
Last edited:


father_and_son

Well-known member
Jan 23, 2012
4,646
Under the Police Box
Are you suggesting that the fans at Twickenham for England rugby are not massive England rugby fans ( or massive fans of the opposition)? Because if you are I suggest that there are more died in the wool fanatical England fans at Twickenham than there are at most England football games at Wembley. Maybe I have misinterpreted your post though.

Given the complexity of rugby union rules, I doubt many would put it high on their list of wannadoos if they don't even understand the rules, which a casual fan would struggle with.

Not quite. I'm suggesting that most people at Twickenham for an England International are attending the one and only rugby match they will attend that year. If you count the number of professional rugby matches attended per season for a Twickenham attendee, it will be a tiny fraction of the number of professional football matches attended by the average Wembley attendee. I also believe that the fanatical England support is as much a product of the once-a-year status of the game as it is dyed-in-the-wool love of rugby.

I'm speaking from personal experience of being a once-a-year rugby fan, talking to once-a-year fans both in and out of the stadium but also a week-in week-out football fan and difference in expectation that comes from the two experiences.
 




Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Jul 23, 2003
34,083
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
The thing I really identified with about Simon's piece is that an exciting top level sporting encounter – which an England rugby international clearly is, however the team happens to be playing at the time – really doesn't NEED all the hyped up fake razzamatazz organisers seem to think necessary. And in some cases, it can actually work AGAINST the atmosphere.

Similarly, there have been times at the Albion when you really want the last 10-15 mins before kick off to be a growing sense of the crowd's anticipation, chants from home and away, and that sense of excitement that needs no artificial stoking up. Let the people provide the atmosphere - it sure as heck isn't going to come from tinpot gimmicks.

This. Excellent writer is Simon Barnes. One of the reasons I take the Times now & again despite being a regular Grauniad reader.
 


Questions

Habitual User
Oct 18, 2006
24,858
Worthing
Not quite. I'm suggesting that most people at Twickenham for an England International are attending the one and only rugby match they will attend that year. If you count the number of professional rugby matches attended per season for a Twickenham attendee, it will be a tiny fraction of the number of professional football matches attended by the average Wembley attendee. I also believe that the fanatical England support is as much a product of the once-a-year status of the game as it is dyed-in-the-wool love of rugby.

I'm speaking from personal experience of being a once-a-year rugby fan, talking to once-a-year fans both in and out of the stadium but also a week-in week-out football fan and difference in expectation that comes from the two experiences.

Once a year ? Twice a year ? Twenty three times a year. Does it matter if like me or Mr Barnes you find the whole thing bloody annoying. It ruins the build up to games in my opinion. Ok they tried it at the Amex but apart from a few, most people find it a turn off and stay out of earshot for as long as possible. I know I do.
 


Hamilton

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
12,452
Brighton
I agree with Simon Barnes.

I work in the marketing industry and I'm ashamed of what event marketers have done to sports like football, rugby, cricket etc. Practically anything that becomes naturally popular eventually gets abused and ruined by them. This is the event guys - there are many in sports marketing that have done great work.

The introduction of the obligatory opera soprano at the start of football and rugby matches is a prime example of the unimaginative and unnecessary marketing that has been introduced.

I went to the League Cup final two years ago and was stunned by the way in which the constant barrage from the deafening PA sought to suppress any atmosphere that the crowd might have naturally made by its own accord. By the time the PA announcer stopped yelling (which was the second before the ref blew the whistle to start the game) much of the crowd had given up the will to live or taken to nurofen and paracetamol.

Marketers don't want to take the risk that the atmosphere might not match the expectations set by their posters. That would break the 'brand promise.' They forget that the brand is what the brand is - otherwise it's just a bloody lie.
 


big nuts

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2011
4,864
Hove
The use of music during sport is one of my biggest hates. If I wanted to listen to music I'd put the radio on or go to a concert I don't want to here Pop music at a sporting event.

I purposely avoid 20/20 and a lot of One Day cricket as it's such an annoyance. I can understand a sport like Darts needing music to add some excitement to proceedings but Rugby, Football and Cricket really don't and the music takes away rather than adds anything to proceedings.
 




Beach Hut

Brighton Bhuna Boy
Jul 5, 2003
71,954
Living In a Box
Barnes really stuck the knife in Monty the other week and called him a **** - mind you he was right but a bit extreme.

NB **** was a milder word for a lady's you know what and not the c word
 


Carrot Cruncher

NHS Slave
Helpful Moderator
Jul 30, 2003
5,052
Southampton, United Kingdom
Twickenham now is a complete corporate whorehouse. The best seats mere mortals can usually get are in line with the 22, but most are behind the posts.

The reason most are 1-a-year attendees is it's because it's nigh on impossible to get a ticket and even harder to get one that doesn't require a 2nd mortgage being taken out.

As for the article, I agree with him.
 


Albion and Premier League latest from Sky Sports


Top
Link Here