Can anybody with legal experience help with this?

brixtonA23 · Oct 5, 2013

I've read a on the BBC website that if fans chant the word 'Yid' at tomorrow's game between Spurs and West Ham, they will be arrested. Is this legal? I totally understand the need to stop racial or cultural abuse. But is there a list of words that we should be aware of, in the event of being arrested? Written without prejudice and because I really would like to know, (and not an excuse to use abusive language that is legal).

Shropshire Seagull · Oct 5, 2013

Personally, my policy always is "if in doubt, leave it out" - so don't say it ...

beorhthelm · Oct 5, 2013

its going to be intersting to see how the Met arrest (or attempt) a few thousand football fans at once.

looney · Oct 5, 2013

brixtonA23 said:
I've read a on the BBC website that if fans chant the word 'Yid' at tomorrow's game between Spurs and West Ham, they will be arrested. Is this legal? I totally understand the need to stop racial or cultural abuse. But is there a list of words that we should be aware of, in the event of being arrested? Written without prejudice and because I really would like to know, (and not an excuse to use abusive language that is legal).

The BBC being in lockstep with the Grauniad will churn out this sort of pap uncritically. As someone said if 1000s are doing it the best plod could hope for is to catch the ringleader. But dont spurs fans sing it as well?

brixtonA23 · Oct 6, 2013

looney said:
The BBC being in lockstep with the Grauniad will churn out this sort of pap uncritically. As someone said if 1000s are doing it the best plod could hope for is to catch the ringleader. But dont spurs fans sing it as well?

Maybe it was a documentary I thought I had watched years ago but always thought the 'firms' were, Gooners, ICF, Red Army, Bushwackers, Urchins, Service Crew, Zulus, etc etc. But I did think that Spurs called themselves the 'Yids' I do hope writing this hasn't made me liable for prosecution.

pastafarian · Oct 6, 2013

brixtonA23 said:
I've read a on the BBC website that if fans chant the word 'Yid' at tomorrow's game between Spurs and West Ham, they will be arrested. Is this legal? I totally understand the need to stop racial or cultural abuse. But is there a list of words that we should be aware of, in the event of being arrested? Written without prejudice and because I really would like to know, (and not an excuse to use abusive language that is legal).

i presume you were reading this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24388471

Tottenham Hotspur and West Ham United fans have been warned against chanting the word "yid" ahead of their derby clash on Sunday.

The Metropolitan Police said fans using the term could be arrested.

The warning comes as the north London club has sent a questionnaire asking if the word should be banned from chants.

Spurs have a strong Jewish following and have been the target of abuse from opposition fans, although some Spurs supporters use the term themselves.

The chairman of the footballers' union, Clarke Carlisle, said fans should be banned for using the word, but Prime Minister David Cameron has said people should not be prosecuted unless it is used as an insult.
'Debated at length'

The Football Association has warned supporters that the use of such words could result in a banning order or criminal charges.

The Met said the term caused harassment, alarm or distress to others, and officers would be taking action to stamp it out.

Ch Supt Mick Johnson, the match commander on Sunday, said: "This topic has been debated at length but our position is clear, racism and offensive language have no place in football or indeed in society.

"Those supporters who engage in such behaviour should be under no illusion that they may be committing an offence and may be liable to a warning or be arrested."

West Ham United also warned supporters that "unacceptable conduct" at Sunday's match could lead to fans being banned from attending games.

In a statement on its website the football club said: "The club, along with the Metropolitan Police, will continue to adopt a zero tolerance policy towards any form of discriminatory behaviour this year.

"Any fan found to be acting inappropriately - including racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic behaviour - will be punished to the full extent of the law and banned from attending matches."

In a statement issued late on Friday the Tottenham Hotspur Supporters Trust (THST) said they believed no Spurs fan "uses the term 'yid' in an offensive or insulting way".

But it said the distinction between the use of the term as a "badge of honour and a call to arms" and the "anti-Semitic abuse levelled at our fans by supporters of opposing teams appears to have been dismissed by the FA and the Metropolitan Police".

The decision to "label the songs our fans have been singing and the chants our fans have been chanting for decades as racist overnight" was, it said, incomprehensible and could be in breach of freedom of expression legislation.

The statement ended not by warning fans not to use the term, but urged those at the game "to make their decision as to whether or not to use the term on Sunday equipped with all the information available".

i think there is a difference between "will" be arrested and "could" be arrested,this is a fight the FA and Police cannot win and frankly its stupid they have ever embarked on this crusade.

Picture the scene,a bunch of away fans at the amex get very vocal with some homophobic chanting,the whole stadium all 26000 responds en masse with "gay army".....now is that being homophobic? or is it sending a message dont be such a bunch of twits,there is nothing wrong with being gay.the same reasoning applies to Spurs.

DJ Leon · Oct 6, 2013

brixtonA23 said:
I've read a on the BBC website that if fans chant the word 'Yid' at tomorrow's game between Spurs and West Ham, they will be arrested. Is this legal? I totally understand the need to stop racial or cultural abuse. But is there a list of words that we should be aware of, in the event of being arrested? Written without prejudice and because I really would like to know, (and not an excuse to use abusive language that is legal).

Avoiding being offensive really isn't hard. Don't suggest that some kind of watch list of words and phrases is needed.

DJ Leon · Oct 6, 2013

pastafarian said:
i think there is a difference between "will" be arrested and "could" be arrested,this is a fight the FA and Police cannot win and frankly its stupid they have ever embarked on this crusade.

Picture the scene,a bunch of away fans at the amex get very vocal with some homophobic chanting,the whole stadium all 26000 responds en masse with "gay army".....now is that being homophobic? or is it sending a message dont be such a bunch of twits,there is nothing wrong with being gay.the same reasoning applies to Spurs.

Not really, no. 'Yid' is an offensive term. 'Gay' is not. They are incomparable. It's more comparable to say '******' and regardless of who sings 'town full of ******s', us or them, it's offensive.

I really don't think this is hard to understand and cannot grasp why Cameron could have made such an embarrassing intervention on this. If he's happy that you can use any term as long as you don't mean it as an insult, why doesn't he, as a man with no racial prejudice, try using the word 'ni**er' in casual conversation with voters in Brixton or Hackney? I think we'd all love to see how that social experiment goes.

beorhthelm · Oct 6, 2013

DJ Leon said:
Not really, no. 'Yid' is an offensive term. 'Gay' is not.

care to explain why? offense is all about context, in this case the Spurs fans use the term Yid as an identity but a group of people who dont go to football (and possibly arent even jewish) are offended by its use. there is nothing offensive about a spurs fan calling themselves a yid. yet, suddenly it is if its a Chelsea, Westham or Millwall fan. context.

wellquickwoody · Oct 6, 2013

DJ Leon said:
Not really, no. 'Yid' is an offensive term.

When used by a Jewish Tottenham fan?

DJ Leon · Oct 6, 2013

beorhthelm said:
care to explain why? offense is all about context, in this case the Spurs fans use the term Yid as an identity but a group of people who dont go to football (and possibly arent even jewish) are offended by its use. there is nothing offensive about a spurs fan calling themselves a yid. yet, suddenly it is if its a Chelsea, Westham or Millwall fan. context.

Sure - because it's a pejorative term. I don't care about reclamation and identity, it doesn't make it acceptable. What makes you thinks this is just about opposition fans and non-Jews being offended? This is about Jewish people being offended and plenty are.

DJ Leon · Oct 6, 2013

wellquickwoody said:
When used by a Jewish Tottenham fan?

Yes. The word 'ni**er' is offensive to the overwhelming majority of black people. Regardless of who uses it.

Dandyman · Oct 6, 2013

DJ Leon said:
Sure - because it's a pejorative term. I don't care about reclamation and identity, it doesn't make it acceptable. What makes you thinks this is just about opposition fans and non-Jews being offended? This is about Jewish people being offended and plenty are.

I am part Jewish, have Spurs as my "other team"and have always viewed the chants as source of pride and defiance. If Baddiel wants to do something about anti-semitism he'd be better off starting with some of the low life that support Chelski.

wellquickwoody · Oct 6, 2013

DJ Leon said:
Yes. The word 'ni**er' is offensive to the overwhelming majority of black people. Regardless of who uses it.

And when have the police prosecuted a black person for using that term?

The Merry Prankster · Oct 6, 2013

Dandyman said:
I am part Jewish, have Spurs as my "other team"and have always viewed the chants as source of pride and defiance. If Baddiel wants to do something about anti-semitism he'd be better off starting with some of the low life that support Chelski.

Exactly. Baddiel argues that the Spurs chants inflame the Chelsea morons into abuse. Ignoring the fact that Spurs fans adopted Yid as a defiant gesture against those very morons who were abusing them already. Baddiels at the Corn Exchange on Thursday might have to heckle him.

DJ Leon · Oct 6, 2013

Dandyman said:
I am part Jewish, have Spurs as my "other team"and have always viewed the chants as source of pride and defiance. If Baddiel wants to do something about anti-semitism he'd be better off starting with some of the low life that support Chelski.

It might well be a source of pride and defiance, doesn't stop it being offensive to others though. Besides, some people just think that the best way to stop the word being used is to stop using it yourself.

DJ Leon · Oct 6, 2013

wellquickwoody said:
And when have the police prosecuted a black person for using that term?

Are all Spurs fans Jewish?

Bevendean Hillbilly · Oct 6, 2013

Dandyman said:
I am part Jewish, have Spurs as my "other team"and have always viewed the chants as source of pride and defiance. If Baddiel wants to do something about anti-semitism he'd be better off starting with some of the low life that support Chelski.

I remember the chants of "never felt more like gassing the Jews" and the "hisssssss" sung by oppos at spurs fans. That's what baddiel should focus on. Yiddo is like "**** you" when chanted at small minded twats by spurs fans.

I'm not David Baddiel and can only claim a Jewish grandmother as a Semitic bona fide...it may be that his indignation is widely shared by the diaspora...although I think that unlikely...and how come other Jews associated with Spurs, Daniel Levy for instance, see this for what it is and for what it,surely, is not. On a lighter not. Anything that infuriates Chelsea fans should be encouraged. Isn't Roman Abramovitch Jewish too?

Dandyman · Oct 6, 2013

Bevendean Hillbilly said:
I remember the chants of "never felt more like gassing the Jews" and the "hisssssss" sung by oppos at spurs fans. That's what baddiel should focus on. Yiddo is like "**** you" when chanted at small minded twats by spurs fans.

I'm not David Baddiel and can only claim a Jewish grandmother as a Semitic bona fide...it may be that his indignation is widely shared by the diaspora...although I think that unlikely...and how come other Jews associated with Spurs, Daniel Levy for instance, see this for what it is and for what it,surely, is not. On a lighter not. Anything that infuriates Chelsea fans should be encouraged. Isn't Roman Abramovitch Jewish too?

This in spades. Abramovitch is Jewish (or of Jewish origin) as was Avram Grant, who seemed to attract some fairly foul abuse from the Stamford Bridge grunters.

brixtonA23 · Oct 6, 2013

Seems like the Spurs fans made their own mind up on this discussion.

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