Non compliance of FFP

Icy Gull · Oct 5, 2013

FFP seems to be a big millstone around our necks. We have the biggest crowds and we must be up there in ticket cost too. We are surely better placed than most clubs without parachute payments?

So, with teams like Forest flouting the rules, it seems, I'd be interested to know how the fines are worked out and how much they are if clubs are being seen not to comply.

With no inside knowledge I'd suggest that it may have been worth our while to ignore them ourselves this year as long as the losses were sustainable to try and make the top tier and the bag of gold, dependant on how draconian the fines are?

Does anybody know how the figure is arrived at, is it an escalating amount dependent on the size of the debt?

I'll be well pissed if it turns out to be a paltry amount as as far as I can see we are the leaders in trying to comply, I'm not sure some of the others in our league are making much effort at all.

I gather the money taken from clubs not complying is spread around those that have complied? We'll need quite a few non compilers for it to be worth much unless the fines are massive.

somerset · Oct 5, 2013

Points only fines for those teams that don't get promotion, cash fines for those that do, hardly a hardship to lose a million or two when the riches of the prem are in the pot.

Triggaaar · Oct 5, 2013

somerset said:
Points only fines for those teams that don't get promotion, cash fines for those that do, hardly a hardship to lose a million or two when the riches of the prem are in the pot.

So it should be a lot more than a million or two then.

Icy Gull · Oct 5, 2013

somerset said:
Points only fines for those teams that don't get promotion, cash fines for those that do, hardly a hardship to lose a million or two when the riches of the prem are in the pot.

Really? So a team can lose points if they fail to get promoted, how many?

Again I ask how big are the fines if you do go up? A big or small percentage of the windfall?

Have I missed something on this? We are all accepting FFP on here but nobody knows what the actual bottom line cost of failing to do so is?

Really surprised if this is the case, have we stopped asking questions, as fans?

somerset · Oct 5, 2013

I forgot to say, before points deductions, its trf embargo's.

KZNSeagull · Oct 5, 2013

The calculation is below. You can read all about it here http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/FLExplainedDetail/0,,10794~2748246,00.html. By my rudimentary calculations, if QPR lose 25m like the last time they were promoted, they would pay something like 18m in fines. So not paltry. BUT, it all depends on the Football League sticking to their guns and applying the rules - the big test will come December next year.

But you also have to remember that TB has said that he does NOT want to dip his hand in his pocket all the time - he wants the club to the self-sufficient in the longer term and he said this before FFP came along. So to assume that TB wants to flout the rules but cannot, is a large assumption to make

Clubs promoted to the Premier League will be required to provide Financial Fair Play information for their promotion season by December 1. Any club found to have breached Financial Fair Play regulations will be required to pay a 'Fair Play Tax' on the excess by which the club failed to fulfil the Fair Play requirement, ranging from 1% on the first £100,000 to 100% on anything over £10m.
The Fair Play Tax will be applied at the following thresholds:
(a) 1% of the excess between £1 and £100,000;
(b) 20% of the excess between £100,001 and £500,000;
(c) 40% of the excess between £500,001 and £1,000,000;
(d) 60% of the excess between £1,000,001 and £5,000,000;
(e) 80% of the excess between £5,000,001 and £10,000,000; and
(f) 100% of the excess over £10,000,000
Any proceeds will be distributed equally amongst clubs that have complied with the Financial Fair Play regulations for the season in question.

KZNSeagull · Oct 5, 2013

somerset said:
I forgot to say, before points deductions, its trf embargo's.

There are NO points deductions. transfer embargo's for those not promoted, fines for those that are.

Gordon the Gopher · Oct 5, 2013

Foreign owners at Forest who see them as an investment that will only give them a profit if they make the premiership can just bugger off at the end of the season if they're gamble/investment doesn't work out and leave any new owners with the resulting mess. Said many times but worth saying again. I know who I would have owning and running our club!

Icy Gull · Oct 5, 2013

KZNSeagull said:
The calculation is below. You can read all about it here http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/FLExplainedDetail/0,,10794~2748246,00.html. By my rudimentary calculations, if QPR lose 25m like the last time they were promoted, they would pay something like 18m in fines. So not paltry. BUT, it all depends on the Football League sticking to their guns and applying the rules - the big test will come December next year.

But you also have to remember that TB has said that he does NOT want to dip his hand in his pocket all the time - he wants the club to the self-sufficient in the longer term and he said this before FFP came along. So to assume that TB wants to flout the rules but cannot, is a large assumption to make

Clubs promoted to the Premier League will be required to provide Financial Fair Play information for their promotion season by December 1. Any club found to have breached Financial Fair Play regulations will be required to pay a 'Fair Play Tax' on the excess by which the club failed to fulfil the Fair Play requirement, ranging from 1% on the first £100,000 to 100% on anything over £10m.
The Fair Play Tax will be applied at the following thresholds:
(a) 1% of the excess between £1 and £100,000;
(b) 20% of the excess between £100,001 and £500,000;
(c) 40% of the excess between £500,001 and £1,000,000;
(d) 60% of the excess between £1,000,001 and £5,000,000;
(e) 80% of the excess between £5,000,001 and £10,000,000; and
(f) 100% of the excess over £10,000,000
Any proceeds will be distributed equally amongst clubs that have complied with the Financial Fair Play regulations for the season in question.

Thanks for that, those are pretty draconian. I take your point re TB wanting the club to fund itself now. Madjedski did much the same thing at Reading I believe. It took a while but the achieved their goal of the top division and have been quite stable until their recent takeover I believe.

Lord Bracknell · Oct 5, 2013

So ... If the Albion turn out to be the ONLY club that complies, everyone else gets fined and we get ALL the money? If the other clubs also suffer a transfer embargo, does this mean we get a free run at any player who becomes available?

Sounds like a good deal. Increase the price of pies NOW, please.

BensGrandad · Oct 5, 2013

Transfer embargos would not work as clubs would buy the players in January who they considered good enough to take them up and keep them up so not need to buy any new players. Points cant be done because the accounts don't have to be in until October by which time the clubs will have played may Premier games.
The only possible solution as I see it is automatic relegation at the end of that season and a fine equivalent to the financial gain that they obtained, even then they would have gained by increased gates in the Premiership.

Blue Valkyrie · Oct 5, 2013

I'm not sure, but does it apply or not to Reading, QPR, and Wigan, or are they let off for the first year to 'sort themselves out' ?

KZNSeagull · Oct 5, 2013

Lord Bracknell said:
So ... If the Albion turn out to be the ONLY club that complies, everyone else gets fined and we get ALL the money? If the other clubs also suffer a transfer embargo, does this mean we get a free run at any player who becomes available?

Sounds like a good deal. Increase the price of pies NOW, please.

Yup, that's what the rules say.

Blue Valkyrie said:
I'm not sure, but does it apply or not to Reading, QPR, and Wigan, or are they let off for the first year to 'sort themselves out' ?

They will be fined if they go straight back up but do not comply to the Championship FFP rules, but if they stay down, no penalties in the first year.

"Clubs relegated from the Premier League will not be subject to sanctions in their first season in the Championship as long as they have met their financial obligations under Premier League regulations. They would, however, be subject to the potential of a Fair Play Tax if they achieved promotion in their first season in the Championship whilst not complying with the FFP regulations."

saafend_seagull · Oct 5, 2013

Gordon the Gopher said:
Foreign owners at Forest who see them as an investment that will only give them a profit if they make the premiership can just bugger off at the end of the season if they're gamble/investment doesn't work out and leave any new owners with the resulting mess. Said many times but worth saying again. I know who I would have owning and running our club!

Unfortunately not the case, the guy is a forest fan since the clough era.

Icy Gull · Oct 5, 2013

Is the money just spread around the Championship for clubs in that league? If so how does that affect clubs that are relegated and comply, do they get Championship hand outs or will they have to make do with League One handouts. How about the clubs relegated from the Premier League who have complied?

nwgull · Oct 5, 2013

Blue Valkyrie said:
I'm not sure, but does it apply or not to Reading, QPR, and Wigan, or are they let off for the first year to 'sort themselves out' ?

Of course it applies to them. This is the justification behind parachute payments: to cover the legacy of an entire squad on Premier League wages.

Edit: it half applies. I was basing this on an article I read about QPR and that them getting promoted would result in a payday to all championship clubs that conform to FFP of circa 2m.

KZNSeagull · Oct 5, 2013

Icy Gull said:
Is the money just spread around the Championship for clubs in that league? How does that affect clubs that are relegated and comply, do they get Championship hand outs or will they have to make do with League One handouts?

"Clubs relegated to League 1 will not be entitled to any payout derived from the Fair Play Tax and will be required to comply with the FFP rules in operation in that division."

Papa Lazarou · Oct 5, 2013

Lord Bracknell said:
So ... If the Albion turn out to be the ONLY club that complies, everyone else gets fined and we get ALL the money? If the other clubs also suffer a transfer embargo, does this mean we get a free run at any player who becomes available?

Sounds like a good deal. Increase the price of pies NOW, please.

Yes, were that to occur AND the FL have the balls / clout to make it happen we'd be rolling in cash.

Ernest · Oct 5, 2013

You just know that CHEATS are going to prosper with this and if we were serious about getting to the Prem we need to do it by fair means or fowl

jgmcdee · Oct 5, 2013

Ernest said:
You just know that CHEATS are going to prosper with this and if we were serious about getting to the Prem we need to do it by fair means or fowl

We're too chicken for that.

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