Jock Stein, Fergie and the other greats.......

Lenny Rider · Oct 3, 2013

Football talk in the office, young lad who works for me supports Manchester United, lives in Rustington so that figures, banging on about Sir Alex being the greatest British football manager of all time.

I have argued that Stein's achievement in 1967, when Celtic were the first british club to win the European Cup with 10 of the starting 11 being born within 2 miles of Parkhead is something which puts him right up there and will never be surpassed again.

Overall was Fergie better than Stein, Shankly, Paisley or Clough?

Or is it all about different circumstances?

Ernest · Oct 3, 2013

Was a peak Muhammad Ali better than a peak Mike Tyson or a peak Rocky Marciano ?

Simster · Oct 3, 2013

Ferguson will go down as the greatest manager of all time. Not just because of his years at Man Utd, but because prior to that, he took a club smaller than ours to a league title and a European trophy win. His success at St Mirren (lower end of 2nd div to top of the first) is merely a footnote.

Clough was a great because he enjoyed title and European success at two different provincial clubs. But as I say, Fergie did that at Aberdeen as well as dominating England for 2 decades and winning 3 Euro trophies including the big one, twice.

Stein was a great because 10 of his 11 were born within THIRTY miles of Parkhead (not TWO!). However, it's hard to imagine anyone ever being able to do that in the modern game, so that achievement will forever stand alone.

Shankly & Paisley were a great managers, but neither achieved half as much as SAF.

Mellotron · Oct 3, 2013

What's a shame is that Fergie will also go down as a CLASSLESS DICK with it.

MattBackHome · Oct 3, 2013

Mellotron said:
What's a shame is that Fergie will also go down as a CLASSLESS DICK with it.

I don't think it's a shame. Being a classless dick was a core part of what it was that made him successful; all the gamesmanship, mind games, media blackmail, pressure on officials etc... To take that away from him is to misunderstand how he did what he did, IMO.

*Gullsworth* · Oct 3, 2013

Mellotron said:
What's a shame is that Fergie will also go down as a CLASSLESS DICK with it.

But he is the manager who won the most........was that not his job? There have been classier managers but who would you like to manage BHA, a CLASSLESS DICK who is a serial winner or a classy human being who wins you nothing. We will never see the like of SAF again. Simply the GREATEST manager ever known in the UK :thumbsup:

supaseagull · Oct 3, 2013

Ferguson was the greatest manager I've ever seen.

It was the fact that year after year,he bought through youth players who were able to slot into his team and at the same time, rejuvenated older players coming to the end of their careers AND won titles with them, is proof that he was an outstanding man manager and tactician.

Herr Tubthumper · Oct 3, 2013

Lenny Rider said:
I have argued that Stein's achievement in 1967, when Celtic were the first british club to win the European Cup with 10 of the starting 11 being born within 2 miles of Parkhead is something which puts him right up there and will never be surpassed again.

Is this more an indication of the times as opposed to a feat engineered by Stein? Did other big clubs in the 60s have more locally focussed teams and players predominantly from the city in which they were based? I dont know much about 60s football to be honest.

MattBackHome · Oct 3, 2013

I'd rather not have the success if it meant being a classless dick.

The Buttery Biscuit Base · Oct 3, 2013

Clough, while what he achieved was quite incredible, he couldn't built on the success after Taylor left for Derby. Peter Taylor brought more to the table than he is given credit for.

Personally, Jock Stein's achievement is supreme. He won 10 leagues, 8 cups, 6 league cups and a European cup with players born within a stones throw of the club!

Mellotron · Oct 3, 2013

So it's not possible to be successful in sport without being a CLASSLESS DICK? OK then...

*Gullsworth* · Oct 3, 2013

Mellotron said:
So it's not possible to be successful in sport without being a CLASSLESS DICK? OK then...

Go on then WHO?

CheeseRolls · Oct 3, 2013

Mellotron said:
What's a shame is that Fergie will also go down as a CLASSLESS DICK with it.

Really ?

There are so many stories of small acts of kindness from the old fella, I really can't agree with you on this one at all.

The Buttery Biscuit Base · Oct 3, 2013

Herr Tubthumper said:
Is this more an indication of the times as opposed to a feat engineered by Stein? Did other big clubs in the 60s have more locally focussed teams and players predominantly from the city in which they were based? I dont know much about 60s football to be honest.

The next year Manchester United's win included 6 players born outside of Lancashire, let alone within two miles of the club.

Gullflyinghigh · Oct 3, 2013

Mellotron said:
What's a shame is that Fergie will also go down as a CLASSLESS DICK with it.

I honestly think that was a well cultivated public persona more than anything else.

The amount of other managers who've come out to say that he's always been willing to provide encouragement and advice from him, regardless of the stature of their current team, is staggering. To do that, whilst being responsible for one of the biggest clubs in the world, is hardly a sign of a classless fella.

Like Mourinho, there are some great stories of their generousity out there but it'd rarely suit the media (or themselves) to broadcast it.

Gwylan · Oct 3, 2013

Simster said:
Shankly & Paisley were a great managers, but neither achieved half as much as SAF.

Well, apart from Paisley's three European cups, compared to Fergie's two. He also won the league six times in nine attempts. His 66% success rate is better than SAF's 56%

Having said that, you can't know Ferguson's success. He inherited a worse team than Paisley did and rebuilt several times - and even if he did have considerable financial resources at his disposal, money doesn't always buy success: ask Abramovitch.

It's impossible to say which one is better than others: you could say Herbert Chapman was better than all of them, he virtually invented football management.

If, on the pain of death, I was forced to make a selection, I'd plump for Clough for taking two unfashionable clubs to league and European success, without big money behind him. But I think they all brought something to the game and should be equally celebrated

edna krabappel · Oct 3, 2013

I think with Paisley though, he took over a team that was already dominant in English football as well as in Europe, so his achievement will always have to stand up against that (not that it's necessarily easy- look at Moyes, for example).

Clough is a decent shout. Football is a million miles away from what it was then, but imagine someone winning the league with Derby County, or taking Forest to two European cups now? Unthinkable.

DavidinSouthampton · Oct 3, 2013

Simster said:
Ferguson will go down as the greatest manager of all time. Not just because of his years at Man Utd, but because prior to that, he took a club smaller than ours to a league title and a European trophy win. His success at St Mirren (lower end of 2nd div to top of the first) is merely a footnote.

Clough was a great because he enjoyed title and European success at two different provincial clubs. But as I say, Fergie did that at Aberdeen as well as dominating England for 2 decades and winning 3 Euro trophies including the big one, twice.

Stein was a great because 10 of his 11 were born within THIRTY miles of Parkhead (not TWO!). However, it's hard to imagine anyone ever being able to do that in the modern game, so that achievement will forever stand alone.

Shankly & Paisley were a great managers, but neither achieved half as much as SAF.

But didn't Shankly take over at Liverpool when they were somewhere towards the bottom half of the then Second Division. So he built a European football powerhouse from next to nothing.

Edit - and I note I am the first one to stick up for Shankly - Good God, he was a football legend in his own lifetime.

Simster · Oct 3, 2013

Gwylan said:
Well, apart from Paisley's three European cups, compared to Fergie's two. He also won the league six times in nine attempts. His 66% success rate is better than SAF's 56%

Winning the European Cup wasn't half the challenge that winning the Champions League is. People forget but the European Cup frequently only got remotely interesting at the quarter final stage. I'd have to concede your second point though, six in nine is indeed remarkable.

DavidinSouthampton said:
But didn't Shankly take over at Liverpool when they were somewhere towards the bottom half of the then Second Division. So he built a European football powerhouse from next to nothing.

Edit - and I note I am the first one to stick up for Shankly - Good God, he was a football legend in his own lifetime.

I think they were a mid table second division side, but "next to nothing" is pushing it a bit. Liverpool had always been well supported.

And you don't really need to "stick up" for Shankly - I don't think anybody is arguing that he doesn't deserve his place on Lenny Rider's original list of greats. SAF, Shankly, Paisley, Clough and Stein - we're only arguing about the order of the top 5 greatest ever British managers.

The Large One · Oct 3, 2013

edna krabappel said:
I think with Paisley though, he took over a team that was already dominant in English football as well as in Europe, so his achievement will always have to stand up against that (not that it's necessarily easy- look at Moyes, for example).

Paisley inherited a very good side, but not the dominant one. There wasn't really one dominant team around then. Leeds United, Derby County, Manchester City and Liverpool arguably made up the 'Big Four' at the time. Ipswich Town were just starting to become an emergent force.

If you take the nine years prior to him taking over, Liverpool had won...
Two league titles
Two FA Cups
One UEFA Cup

Paisley's nine-year period saw Liverpool win...
Six league titles
Three League Cups
One UEFA Cup
Three European Cups

It was Bob Paisley who turned Liverpool into England's dominant force. His work was continued by Joe Fagin and Kenny Dalglish.

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Jock Stein, Fergie and the other greats.......

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