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Employment Law help required please.......



hitony

Administrator
Jul 13, 2005
16,284
South Wales (im not welsh !!)
I have seen in the past how many times NSC has helped and given good advice on employment law issues, hopefully someone can help me out here, here is the situation.

I booked two weeks holiday a while back, in fact it worked out as 15 days due to flight times and getting home etc, I was told by my boss to contact him on Monday the 30th Sept to find out my hours, this I did, he then informed me I was not due back in work until next Monday the 8th, I then said I expected to be back in work on October 1st, he said as I had asked for Wednesday off and next Saturday he felt it best to let me have another weeks holiday.

I in fact had requested only the evening of 1st October off as it is my wifes birthday and our wedding anniversary and Saturday 5th to go to the brighton game.

My contract states I have to do any 5 out of 7 days and a total minimum of 35 hours a week, now had he put me in until 5pm today and had me do full shifts for Wed, Thur and fri the hours would have been a total of 39.5 so reaching my contracted hours, he said not to worry as I will be paid holiday leave.

I left it there as I know arguing the situation at that point would have got me nowhere, what I am concerned about is the fact that I am being forced by no choice of my own to take extra paid holiday leave clearly using up holidays that I have not requested.

Can companies do this? I feel its not on but really am not sure, I might add had I not contacted him yesterday at 10am as agreed he would not have said anything to me as he is not back in work until Thursday himself. Just for everyone's knowledge we find out our days / hours of work via a works computer (2 weeks in advance, obviously as I was away the only way is to ring up) apart from asking the boss it is the only way of finding out when you are working and to access the system you have to be in work, it is impossible to access outside of work.

My contract, which I have been looking at does not really make me any the wiser to be honest.

If anyone has any experience or knowledge about this I would be grateful, please also understand I am not going to go at them like an mad man as I have only been there 6 months and cant afford to lose the job or indeed get a broom shoved up the dark side of my body and get treated like dogs matter! :)

Thanks in advance :thumbsup:
 


Springal

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2005
23,711
GOSBTS
Companies can dictate when you take holidays - see teachers.

We've had staff that have been dictated to take holiday, due to company down time etc.
 


BensGrandad

New member
Jul 13, 2003
72,015
Haywards Heath
I am not an authority on this but was under the impression, having been told it in the past, that holiday with pay is not an entitlement under the Employment legislation but I could well be wrong.
 


hitony

Administrator
Jul 13, 2005
16,284
South Wales (im not welsh !!)
seen the comments above thanks guys, I might add the time I am at presently using up is time I had booked off for a future booked holiday, so now that time does / will not exist as I am using it up now, I booked the remaining week when I joined as I knew we were going away then.

Our holiday period goes from April 1st to March 31st, the week in question is / was booked for the first week in march as its my birthday and we always go away, now that time will not be available.

In all honesty I think he has completely forgotten about the future booked week next march, but a holiday request form was filled in and signed :shrug:
 


seagullsovergrimsby

#cpfctinpotclub
Aug 21, 2005
43,690
Crap Town
Check with your manager about the week booked in March 2014 or you could find you'll be allowed to take the week off but it will be unpaid.
 






Goldstone1976

We Got Calde in!!
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patreon
Apr 30, 2013
13,765
Herts
Technically speaking, your company can indeed insist that you take holiday when they want you to, even if you'd rather not take it at the time they say.

Most companies will of course negotiate with their employees, if only for good will purposes. It's just possible that you might have a "custom and practice" claim. This could work if you're the only person (or a member of a very small group of people) who has been told to take holiday at a time that doesn't suit you. The claim could be around discrimination (if you're a member of a protected minority) or even constructive dismissal. For the latter to work, you'd have to resign and then go to a tribunal. I wouldn't be confident that such a claim would succeed, but it might.
 


hitony

Administrator
Jul 13, 2005
16,284
South Wales (im not welsh !!)
Technically speaking, your company can indeed insist that you take holiday when they want you to, even if you'd rather not take it at the time they say.

Most companies will of course negotiate with their employees, if only for good will purposes. It's just possible that you might have a "custom and practice" claim. This could work if you're the only person (or a member of a very small group of people) who has been told to take holiday at a time that doesn't suit you. The claim could be around discrimination (if you're a member of a protected minority) or even constructive dismissal. For the latter to work, you'd have to resign and then go to a tribunal. I wouldn't be confident that such a claim would succeed, but it might.

And extend an existing holiday without even informing me?

The rest of our post, thank you but it is not a route I would go down unless really desperately necessary which I don't believe it is, I did ask him yesterday if there were any issues or problems with my work and he said not at all (and in all honesty I have no reason to think there would be) I don't know if anyone else has been asked to take leave but that wont be the case I am positive, my thought is that as he thought I wanted Wednesday off and next Saturday and maybe in the back of his mind he remembered I wanted the evening of today off he was struggling to get my contracted hours in and it was just easier for him to book me out for the week, but I did not want tomorrow off, he got that wrong so as I pointed out in my original post, there would have been enough hours for me to have completed my contracted hours, I think he has just cocked up on what I wanted to be honest.

But thanks anyway :thumbsup:
 




Goldstone1976

We Got Calde in!!
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patreon
Apr 30, 2013
13,765
Herts
And extend an existing holiday without even informing me?

The rest of our post, thank you but it is not a route I would go down unless really desperately necessary which I don't believe it is, I did ask him yesterday if there were any issues or problems with my work and he said not at all (and in all honesty I have no reason to think there would be) I don't know if anyone else has been asked to take leave but that wont be the case I am positive, my thought is that as he thought I wanted Wednesday off and next Saturday and maybe in the back of his mind he remembered I wanted the evening of today off he was struggling to get my contracted hours in and it was just easier for him to book me out for the week, but I did not want tomorrow off, he got that wrong so as I pointed out in my original post, there would have been enough hours for me to have completed my contracted hours, I think he has just cocked up on what I wanted to be honest.

But thanks anyway :thumbsup:

AFAIK (and I have decent knowledge but am not professionally qualified as an employment lawyer), the law is silent on whether he can extend your holiday without your knowledge in advance. Common business practice, and, imo, any tribunal, would say that doing so would be highly unreasonable and they'd lose any case you brought.

As you say, it's probably just a cock-up.....
 


bluenitsuj

Listen to me!!!
Feb 26, 2011
4,305
Willingdon
My small knowledge on it is that most companies you have to give notice for holiday leave, and your employer has to do the same. It seems you have not been given any notice yo take this week off. Check your contract but I would say that you have the law on your side. If they do not budge, put in a grievance.
 


Goldstone1976

We Got Calde in!!
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patreon
Apr 30, 2013
13,765
Herts
My small knowledge on it is that most companies you have to give notice for holiday leave, and your employer has to do the same. It seems you have not been given any notice yo take this week off. Check your contract but I would say that you have the law on your side. If they do not budge, put in a grievance.

It won't be any employment law that governs this particular dispute. The three things to cite (if he wants to kick up a fuss, which it sounds like he doesn't really) would be in ascending order of pressing the big red button: good will lost, custom and practice, and breach of contract/breach of employer's HR handbook (if there is one of the latter).
 




Seagull73

Sienna's Heaven
Jul 26, 2003
3,382
Not Lewes
I think you are perfectly within your rights to query it with HR (or whatever set-up the company has). This sounds very much like your boss pushing his boundaries in order to make you take time that you don't want. I doubt that any HR team would smile on it. I have to say that I have never heard of bosses forcing leave on somebody, although closing holiday availability due to business need is quite common.

You should make enquiries and as bluenitsuj said, possibly raise a grievance if you are not happy with the answer. I certainly don't think you should just let it lie because it doesn't sound right to me.
 




Goldstone1976

We Got Calde in!!
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patreon
Apr 30, 2013
13,765
Herts
I think you are perfectly within your rights to query it with HR (or whatever set-up the company has).Agreed This sounds very much like your boss pushing his boundaries in order to make you take time that you don't want.Or, just a cock-up, or he genuinely thought, mistakenly, that HiTony wanted the time off. Bosses make mistakes too! I doubt that any HR team would smile on it.If deliberate; I agree. They'd almost certainly ask if he had chatted to the boss before hand to try to get it resolved. So, if he wants to take it further, I'd recommend going to the boss first I have to say that I have never heard of bosses forcing leave on somebodyI have. Rarely, though., although closing holiday availability due to business need is quite common.

You should make enquiries and as bluenitsuj said, possibly raise a grievance if you are not happy with the answer. I certainly don't think you should just let it lie because it doesn't sound right to meUnless it's not that big a deal to you. An informal chat with your boss shouldn't harm your relationship. Taking it to HR because you're not happy with the answer will damage your relationship with your boss. Only HiTony can decide whether the potential benefits outway the hassle and possible mid- to long-term damage that raising a formal complaint would do to his relationships with his boss, and possibly, how he is viewed by HR.

.... enough already! Good luck!
 




Gazwag

5 millionth post poster
Mar 4, 2004
30,093
Bexhill-on-Sea
I am not an authority on this but was under the impression, having been told it in the past, that holiday with pay is not an entitlement under the Employment legislation but I could well be wrong.

You are probably thinking of employees taking holiday as pay rather than days, which is now illegal unless you leave work during a holiday year or are on SSP/SMP
 


Fran112

Active member
Jun 6, 2011
132
Waterlooville
It won't be any employment law that governs this particular dispute. The three things to cite (if he wants to kick up a fuss, which it sounds like he doesn't really) would be in ascending order of pressing the big red button: good will lost, custom and practice, and breach of contract/breach of employer's HR handbook (if there is one of the latter).

There may be employment law involved.
IF you have a staff handbook? , this should define your rights regarding holiday, eg whether they can enforce holiday.
OR somewhere they may be a "Staff Notice" regarding holidays?
If there is either of these, they form part of your "Conditions of Service" and as such are legally enforceable.

I would assume this is the case, as small employers will not usually have a "Holiday Request Form"?

I would suggest a meeting and ask how they will pay you for your pre approved outstanding holiday?
 


Goldstone1976

We Got Calde in!!
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patreon
Apr 30, 2013
13,765
Herts
There may be employment law involved.
IF you have a staff handbook? , this should define your rights regarding holiday, eg whether they can enforce holiday.
OR somewhere they may be a "Staff Notice" regarding holidays?
If there is either of these, they form part of your "Conditions of Service" and as such are legally enforceable.

I would assume this is the case, as small employers will not usually have a "Holiday Request Form"?


I would suggest a meeting and ask how they will pay you for your pre approved outstanding holiday?

Indeed they are enforceable. The point I was making is that, afaik, there are no statute clauses that govern the arrangements for arranging when holiday is taken (other than some bank holidays for some specific industries).
 


hitony

Administrator
Jul 13, 2005
16,284
South Wales (im not welsh !!)
It won't be any employment law that governs this particular dispute. The three things to cite (if he wants to kick up a fuss, which it sounds like he doesn't really) would be in ascending order of pressing the big red button: good will lost, custom and practice, and breach of contract/breach of employer's HR handbook (if there is one of the latter).

Yes there is a HR Handbook, I don't have one to hand though.

I don't unless forced, want to press any red button really, it's not my style for one thing and I do enjoy the job, of course if I go back to work next Monday and they start hitting me over the head with things I have supposedly done wrong (god knows what they could be though :shrug: ) then that's a different story.

I was signed off from my 6 month probationary period towards the end of August and I have now only just now, last week in fact completed 6 months employment with them so I do think my record, as short as it is, is quite well respected, I have never once been late (in fact very early every day most times an hour early!) and never had a day off, also I have stepped in at short notice to cover other peoples short noticed absences from work, and I did ask yesterday if there was any issues and was told 3 times in fact, "not at all" so I really hope when I go in on Monday the big stick is not waiting for me :lol:

My real reason for seeking any information was in case I am beaten about he head for whatever reason also of course I am concerned about my pre booked holiday next March, that said if they honour that and pay me holiday pay I wont be bothered by it at all, but as I say my concern is that this weeks forced holiday period is using up that paid time.

Thanks again though all help and advice is honestly appreciated.
 






Westdene Seagull

aka Cap'n Carl Firecrotch
NSC Patreon
Oct 27, 2003
20,938
The arse end of Hangleton
Personally, given you don't want to rock the boat, I'd just suck it up and take some "sick leave" later in the year to make up for it !
 



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