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Are Forest abusing FFP rules?



Couldn't Be Hyypia

We've come a long long way together
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Nov 12, 2006
15,884
Near Dorchester, Dorset
Teams like Forest and Watford will find a way to work round the rules and teams coming down from the Prem will have parachute payments. If you're in one oif these groups you'll do well - if not, you'll be a Championship second class citizen. I suspect that's where we'll be - and I'm not unhappy with that.
 

Driver8

On the road...
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Jul 31, 2005
15,944
North Wales
But surely if getting around FFP is as easy as your owner sponsoring the team with inflated amounts all Barbers cost cutting is unnecessary? If TB wants us to get promoted he pays us £10m to name the West Stand the Lizard Stand and job done.
 

Dick Knights Mumm

Take me Home Falmer Road
Jul 5, 2003
19,578
Hither and Thither
Teams like Forest and Watford will find a way to work round the rules and teams coming down from the Prem will have parachute payments. If you're in one oif these groups you'll do well - if not, you'll be a Championship second class citizen. I suspect that's where we'll be - and I'm not unhappy with that.

Agreed. Patience. And our time will come.
 

Hotchilidog

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2009
8,626
He raises a good point and it is without doubt the biggest loophole in FFP and is something the authorities should take a look at, but I cannot see how that will be properly regulated.
 


Couldn't Be Hyypia

We've come a long long way together
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Nov 12, 2006
15,884
Near Dorchester, Dorset
But surely if getting around FFP is as easy as your owner sponsoring the team with inflated amounts all Barbers cost cutting is unnecessary? If TB wants us to get promoted he pays us £10m to name the West Stand the Lizard Stand and job done.

Or perhaps our sugar daddy has spent far more than he originaly intended (stadium was supposed to be funded by bank borrowings after all) and doesn't want to shell out £10m a year. I suspect he wants us to run on a sustainable basis - where owning our own stadium guarantees us a decent revenue and a great place to play - which in the long run will protect the club.

It's highly possible that these clubs that mortgage their futures by not just abusing FFP rules, but also by abusing their own club's potential existence, could in the medium term end up like Wolves or Pompey. Many, many clubs will go bust in the next decade - or come bloody close - it's highly likely that we will not because of Tony Bloom's investment and prudence. I'm very grateful for that and loving going to the Amex every other week.
 

Titanic

Super Moderator
Helpful Moderator
Jul 5, 2003
38,976
West Sussex


El Presidente

The ONLY Gay in Brighton
Helpful Moderator
Jul 5, 2003
39,688
Pattknull med Haksprut
Sadly the FFP rules are as easy to sidestep as Zaha waltzing around Greer for the Rag's second goal in our night of shame.
 

The Andy Naylor Fan Club

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2012
5,143
Right Here, Right Now
Didn't a similar thing happen at Man City a while back? I am sure that it was said that their chairman used his airline company ( Etihad ) to sponsor the stadium to the tune of a reported £400m.
 


Rugrat

Well-known member
Mar 13, 2011
10,212
Seaford
Or perhaps our sugar daddy has spent far more than he originaly intended (stadium was supposed to be funded by bank borrowings after all) and doesn't want to shell out £10m a year. I suspect he wants us to run on a sustainable basis - where owning our own stadium guarantees us a decent revenue and a great place to play - which in the long run will protect the club.

It's highly possible that these clubs that mortgage their futures by not just abusing FFP rules, but also by abusing their own club's potential existence, could in the medium term end up like Wolves or Pompey. Many, many clubs will go bust in the next decade - or come bloody close - it's highly likely that we will not because of Tony Bloom's investment and prudence. I'm very grateful for that and loving going to the Amex every other week.

It's a good point about Bloom and his money, maybe he just hasn't got the bottomless pit and has his other business interests that need investment ... with a better probability of getting a return. Hopefully he'll remain prudent and not get into a situation where he also feels he has "reached a ceiling" and looks for new investment ... I suspect we would represent a pretty lucrative opportunity

Where such rules are created by bureaucrats there will always be the "duckers and divers" focussed on success that will find a way around it ... will take years to iron it all out
 

severnside gull

Well-known member
May 16, 2007
24,540
By the seaside in West Somerset
I dont expect FFP to last more than a season or two as parachute payments and the likes of Watford and Forest waltzing round the rules make it a total farce which the league have no ability to manage
 

MattBackHome

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
11,681
Sadly the FFP rules are as easy to sidestep as Zaha waltzing around Greer for the Rag's second goal in our night of shame.

El pres - if the rules are as easy to sidestep as you mention (and I bow to your greater knowledge in this area) what are your thoughts on the implications to the Albion? Albion seem to be doing it 'the right way', yet non-penalization of FFP offenders would simply negate all of our efforts, completely undermining our entire approach to FFP.

If it's as easy as you say to get round them then wouldn't we be better off getting a parent-club relationship with The Volga Ural Gasolines FC, loaning Madrid's entire B Team, and starting a new company every year?

I'd like to think that our efforts in this area will be rewarded, that common sense and frugality will pay off in the long term, but if the FA aren't going to back it up, or if the rules themselves are comprimised then surely it's all a load of old bollocks?
 


Stato

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2011
6,518
There is something in the Financial Fair Play rules which states that, if team's over-inflate the cost of sponsorship deals from related parties, the income from them will be considered inline with market rates. It seems fairly clear that this is what Forest have done and I hope they get burned.

Watford really are the worst culprits though. We are in a position where Bloom can''t put his money into the club, but apparently, were he to buy a foreign club, sign players and then sell them to Brighton for next to nothing, or loan them whilst paying their wages through the foreign club, this would be alright. To me it just seems like money laundering. There is no way that Watford could afford the team they have on their turnover. They have an unfair advantage and the football league needs to do the same market rate checks on player value that they are promising on sponsorship.
 

Titanic

Super Moderator
Helpful Moderator
Jul 5, 2003
38,976
West Sussex
Sadly the FFP rules are as easy to sidestep as Zaha waltzing around Greer for the Rag's second goal in our night of shame.

"4. Fair Value
UEFA are aware that owners of clubs could look to inflate a club’s profitability by injecting funds into clubs via artificially inflated commercial deals. Paris St-Germain recently announced a huge sponsorship deal via a body that is connected to the club owners. For this reason UEFA FFP rules require any transaction from a ‘related part’ (i.e. a company or body connected to the club owners) to be assessed to ensure it was a genuine transaction at a ‘fair value’. UEFA has the power to adjust any artificial ‘mates rates’ deals and apply a lower value to the Break Even calculation. This assessment will be carried out by the CFCB panel (see below)."
 

Couldn't Be Hyypia

We've come a long long way together
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Nov 12, 2006
15,884
Near Dorchester, Dorset
El pres - if the rules are as easy to sidestep as you mention (and I bow to your greater knowledge in this area) what are your thoughts on the implications to the Albion? Albion seem to be doing it 'the right way', yet non-penalization of FFP offenders would simply negate all of our efforts, completely undermining our entire approach to FFP.

Matt - I think you're missing the point of FFP. My understanding of it is that it was created to stop clubs over spending and over extending - and by doing so will avoid clubs going out of business by speculating on promotion. So if we are complying, we "win" no matter what. We'll have a club with a long term future. Those who dodge the rules may "win" in the short term, but they put their clubs at risk in all the ways that FFP was meant to address.

We'll be OK by sticking to the FFP rules - but we may not be as high in the league in the short term. They may thrive in the short term but at higher risk to the very future of their clubs.

We'll be OK!
 

KZNSeagull

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
19,672
Wolsingham, County Durham
Matt - I think you're missing the point of FFP. My understanding of it is that it was created to stop clubs over spending and over extending - and by doing so will avoid clubs going out of business by speculating on promotion. So if we are complying, we "win" no matter what. We'll have a club with a long term future. Those who dodge the rules may "win" in the short term, but they put their clubs at risk in all the ways that FFP was meant to address.

We'll be OK by sticking to the FFP rules - but we may not be as high in the league in the short term. They may thrive in the short term but at higher risk to the very future of their clubs.

We'll be OK!

Totally agree. We have to look at the long term.
 


MattBackHome

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
11,681
Matt - I think you're missing the point of FFP. My understanding of it is that it was created to stop clubs over spending and over extending - and by doing so will avoid clubs going out of business by speculating on promotion. So if we are complying, we "win" no matter what. We'll have a club with a long term future. Those who dodge the rules may "win" in the short term, but they put their clubs at risk in all the ways that FFP was meant to address.

We'll be OK by sticking to the FFP rules - but we may not be as high in the league in the short term. They may thrive in the short term but at higher risk to the very future of their clubs.

We'll be OK!

I'm not overly concerned! Like I said I'm in full support of our finacial approach at present - though it does hinge on the rules actually being enforced.

I can accept that a benefit of FFP is to reduce the number of clubs overextending and going balls up. But surely the primary purpose is inherent in the name FFP itself? Maybe I’ve got that wrong.

Regardless of what the primary purpose is, surely the mechanics of FFP (that is giving funds from penalised clubs to the benefit of those who adhere to the rules) are a) designed to move league football to a fairer* state and b) entirely contingent on the adequate management and enforcement of the rules. If they can be swerved via whatever nefarious means, then the whole system is compromised isn’t it?



*Appreciate that fairer is a value call here, but I think we can all pretty much agree what it means.
 

Driver8

On the road...
NSC Licker Extraordinaire
Jul 31, 2005
15,944
North Wales
"4. Fair Value
UEFA are aware that owners of clubs could look to inflate a club’s profitability by injecting funds into clubs via artificially inflated commercial deals. Paris St-Germain recently announced a huge sponsorship deal via a body that is connected to the club owners. For this reason UEFA FFP rules require any transaction from a ‘related part’ (i.e. a company or body connected to the club owners) to be assessed to ensure it was a genuine transaction at a ‘fair value’. UEFA has the power to adjust any artificial ‘mates rates’ deals and apply a lower value to the Break Even calculation. This assessment will be carried out by the CFCB panel (see below)."

UEFA saying they will take action and actually doing anything are very different things. In the meantime Forest are spending millions to the disadvantage of everyone else.
 

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