Technical question about HR and employment law etc

Not Andy Naylor · Jul 1, 2013

Apologies but I asked this question in another thread that has now vanished. I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I'm simply ignorant about these matters and would like to know.

The club created a new post of chief coach and - as far as we know - immediately filled it.

Since they seem to have been trying to do everything by the HR book this summer, should they have advertised the post first, or can they simply give a newly-created job to anyone they want?

And there's a supplementary question that occurs to me: has the post of first-team manager been abolished now that we have a head coach? In which case, is Gus redundant?

Or are they making it up as they go along?

dougdeep · Jul 1, 2013

I think you should ask that at the Fans Forum sir.

hans kraay fan club · Jul 1, 2013

Not Andy Naylor said:
Apologies but I asked this question in another thread that has now vanished. I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I'm simply ignorant about these matters and would like to know.

The club created a new post of chief coach and - as far as we know - immediately filled it.

Since they seem to have been trying to do everything by the HR book this summer, should they have advertised the post first, or can they simply give a newly-created job to anyone they want?

And there's a supplementary question that occurs to me: has the post of first-team manager been abolished now that we have a head coach? In which case, is Gus redundant?

Or are they making it up as they go along?

Why would they be duty bound to advertise a post?

fosters headband · Jul 1, 2013

I have never heard of a law that states an employer must advertise every vacancy. What happens when companies go to head hunting agencies then?

Tricky Dicky · Jul 1, 2013

Not Andy Naylor said:
Apologies but I asked this question in another thread that has now vanished. I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I'm simply ignorant about these matters and would like to know.

The club created a new post of chief coach and - as far as we know - immediately filled it.

Since they seem to have been trying to do everything by the HR book this summer, should they have advertised the post first, or can they simply give a newly-created job to anyone they want?

And there's a supplementary question that occurs to me: has the post of first-team manager been abolished now that we have a head coach? In which case, is Gus redundant?

Or are they making it up as they go along?

I don't see why they can't hire whoever they want. If they did advertise a position, obviously there are laws, but not if they know who they want. What would the point be in going through the process and expense of being forced to advertise and interview loads of people only to hire the person they wanted anyway. No point at all.

DavidinSouthampton · Jul 1, 2013

I think in some sectors large employers have to advertise every vacancy under certain conditions - i.e. Public Sector or large employers where certain Union agreements might be in place. But otherwise, no.

And I would guess that the Head Coach thing is so that Gus could be made redundant if his appeal is successful, and/or so that the Club can not be cited as having replaced him before the whole thing was finalised. The Job Description will have to be different, because in normal circumstances (or even abnormal circumstances) you can not make somebody redundant and then replace them like for like.

Not Andy Naylor · Jul 1, 2013

hans kraay fan club said:
Why would they be duty bound to advertise a post?

That's why I'm asking. I know in some areas, such as education, posts are advertised. In the media, not so much. Football has been a law unto itself, but the Albion seem to have been trying get away from that.

SULLY COULDNT SHOOT · Jul 1, 2013

I think he's right. Im pretty sure employment law is that any post that becomes vacant must be advertised. However, I think it is only when a situation becomes vacant, not when a post is created.

edit... has to be advertised INTERNALLY

Titanic · Jul 1, 2013

Not Andy Naylor said:
That's why I'm asking. I know in some areas, such as education, posts are advertised. In the media, not so much. Football has been a law unto itself, but the Albion seem to have been trying get away from that.

That tends to be heavily unionised work places... like schools, hospitals, etc... usually in a vain attempt to restrict nepotism or 'jobs for the boys'.

beorhthelm · Jul 1, 2013

Not Andy Naylor said:
Since they seem to have been trying to do everything by the HR book this summer, should they have advertised the post first, or can they simply give a newly-created job to anyone they want?

yep. i think there is a common mis-understanding jobs have to be advertised. many organisations, particulalry large ones or government departments have a policy to do so. but its for transparency rather than legal reasons.

Not Andy Naylor said:
And there's a supplementary question that occurs to me: has the post of first-team manager been abolished now that we have a head coach? In which case, is Gus redundant?

reckon thats far more complex than anyone without intimate knowledge of HR law and BHA job descriptions can answer. on the face of it this route would be easier (see it happening all the time), but i believe as a contractor he may still be entitled for a payout of the full contract (rather than the n weeks redundancy).

of course, theres also the point that if he has breached his contract, why go through such steps to remove from job...

Blue Valkyrie · Jul 1, 2013

Not Andy Naylor said:
Apologies but I asked this question in another thread that has now vanished. I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I'm simply ignorant about these matters and would like to know.

The club created a new post of chief coach and - as far as we know - immediately filled it.

Since they seem to have been trying to do everything by the HR book this summer, should they have advertised the post first, or can they simply give a newly-created job to anyone they want?

And there's a supplementary question that occurs to me: has the post of first-team manager been abolished now that we have a head coach? In which case, is Gus redundant?

Or are they making it up as they go along?

No need to advertise a post specifically, unless it is for a council or government job ( or similar eg NHS ).

Many people are promoted within companies - or even taken on / headhunted - without the role they are going to being advertised.

Besides being the new First Team Coach, I did assume Oscar was acting as 'interim manager' as well, but that is a guess really.

Willy Dangle · Jul 1, 2013

If a position is going to be filled internally i.e. with a current employee then it has to be advertised internally. As far a recruitment from outside there is no law apart from diversity laws such as ageism or anything else that ends with ism.

Gus nor his position has been made redundant it is just the club cannot employ another manager whilst in an appeal period. Remember that Oscar is only an interim at present.

Hope that helps.

fosters headband · Jul 1, 2013

DavidinSouthampton said:
I think in some sectors large employers have to advertise every vacancy under certain conditions - i.e. Public Sector or large employers where certain Union agreements might be in place. But otherwise, no.

And I would guess that the Head Coach thing is so that Gus could be made redundant if his appeal is successful, and/or so that the Club can not be cited as having replaced him before the whole thing was finalised. The Job Description will have to be different, because in normal circumstances (or even abnormal circumstances) you can not make somebody redundant and then replace them like for like.

During my working years I worked for a pretty big company (Honeywell) that stated in their handbook, any vacancy would have to be advertised internally first.
There was nothing to say they had to advertise outside.
The internal process was a real joke and any internal applicants were dully interviewed and turned down in most cases.

Goldstone1976 · Jul 1, 2013

El Abd's Head Slap said:
If a position is going to be filled internally i.e. with a current employee then it has to be advertised internally. Not true as far as the law is concerned. It is certainly best practice and is observed in most large organisations and most of the public sector. BHAFC is neither. As far a recruitment from outside there is no law apart from diversity laws such as ageism or anything else that ends with ism.

Gus nor his position has been made redundant it is just the club cannot employ another manager whilst in an appeal period. Remember that Oscar is only an interim at present. Also not true. The club (TB) said that they were going to appoint an "interim manager". Instead they appointed a Head Coach, whose job is permanent.
Hope that helps.

....

Tricky Dicky · Jul 1, 2013

El Abd's Head Slap said:
If a position is going to be filled internally i.e. with a current employee then it has to be advertised internally.

I really don't believe this is true. I'm no lawyer or HR person, but I don't remember ever working for a company that advertises it's positions internally - though I've never worked public sector or anywhere where there are unions, which is where I suspect these things stem from.

Birdie Boy · Jul 1, 2013

Very slightly off topic but does anyone know how long Poyet has to appeal? I know it has been mentioned that it will take up to 3 weeks but does he officially, in writing or verbally, need to state to the BHA board that he wants to appeal within x amount of days? Has he already done this?

I know it doesn't really matter and one way or another he will be gone but just interesting to know.

Lord Bracknell · Jul 1, 2013

Not Andy Naylor said:
That's why I'm asking. I know in some areas, such as education, posts are advertised. In the media, not so much. Football has been a law unto itself, but the Albion seem to have been trying get away from that.

Not just education, but in a lot of other services where funding and employment practices are subject to public scrutiny. Schools and other public services are run in a way that is supposed to be "accountable" to voters and other "stakeholders". But this doesn't get a requirement into employment law to advertise all posts (or, indeed, any posts in an organisation with different accountabilities). If you do advertise, though, you must comply with obligations not to discriminate without justifiable reasons.

Moshe Gariani · Jul 1, 2013

fosters headband said:
any internal applicants were dully interviewed

that sounds like a Python sketch... "So, Mr Phillips, you are here for your dull interview - please try to stay awake..."

house your seagull · Jul 1, 2013

I work in HR so have found this whole thing very interesting.

What I find strange is the time it has taken to conclude the disciplinary. These things are to be done quickly and cleanly, not 6 weeks or whatever.

This makes me think the it's the lawyers and agents who have been making the mess here, as you would expect.

The club's credible use of employment law is to be applauded, but I think (just my opinion) that the toing-and-froing between the two parties has probably been as messy and ungentlemanly as any other business in football.

With regards to the Oscar appointment, I think this was very, very brave of the club while the sacking is at appeal stage. If Gus thinks he has a case this could go to Tribunal, which is public *gulp* ... Doubt Gus wants this going public.

desprateseagull · Jul 1, 2013

If Gu's position as 'manager' redundant, would more payoff now be due if no notice given?

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