[Albion] Question re money next year

Ex-Staffs Gull · May 29, 2013

I know our losses were 8 million ish, but was any of that due to things like AITC, Youth training facilities or repayment to TB. Ffp ignores the first 2 and as I understand it, the club does not 'have' to pay any amount to TB if it cannot.

In other words if we looked like goibg over the ffp level, could we adjust the books to be more favourable?

brighton rock · May 29, 2013

Going to be very hard next season with the FAs rule about running a fit club losses of £8 million will not be tolerated ?

Pavilionaire · May 29, 2013

If we can't work within FFP then God help the rest of the Championship.

yxee · May 29, 2013

Don't think repayments to TB are going to happen, all he has to do is convert the debt to shares and the loan is gone.

brighton rock said:
Going to be very hard next season with the FAs rule about running a fit club losses of £8 million will not be tolerated ?

three points,

1. the £8m quoted loss is for 11/12, a long time ago now
2. an £8m loss in 13/14 would be exactly on the accepted limits of FFP
3. the football league would tolerate it because there are no sanctions until 14/15.

Triggaaar · May 29, 2013

Ex-Staffs Gull said:
I know our losses were 8 million ish, but was any of that due to things like AITC, Youth training facilities or repayment to TB.

The club hasn't re-payed TB anything, so that's not included in the figure. The clubs with an advantage are those coming down from the premier league, with their parachute payments.

nwgull · May 29, 2013

yxee said:
Don't think repayments to TB are going to happen, all he has to do is convert the debt to shares and the loan is gone.

three points,

1. the £8m quoted loss is for 11/12, a long time ago now
2. an £8m loss in 13/14 would be exactly on the accepted limits of FFP
3. the football league would tolerate it because there are no sanctions until 14/15.

Sanctions in 14/15 apply to the losses made in 13/14, so it is important that we don't make a loss greater than 8m next season.

mune ni kamome · May 29, 2013

I can see everyone below the Prem become semi-professional soon under these rules.

nwgull · May 29, 2013

mune ni kamome said:
I can see everyone below the Prem become semi-professional soon under these rules.

You don't think that a club turning over 20-30M a year can afford to pay 30 full time playing staff?!

mune ni kamome · May 29, 2013

Yes but what kind of quality will the staff be if we're turning over 20-30M and spending 28-38M

theonesmith · May 29, 2013

mune ni kamome said:
Yes but what kind of quality will the staff be if we're turning over 20-30M and spending 28-38M

Surely the idea is that the 'staff' take a paycut, and the ridiculous pay that footballers receive (Should Mackail-Smith really be able to afford an Audi R8?) finally starts to recede...

nwgull · May 29, 2013

mune ni kamome said:
Yes but what kind of quality will the staff be if we're turning over 20-30M and spending 28-38M

We, and all other clubs, will just have to cut back the wage bill, the most expensive of which is obviously that of the playing staff. We could halve what we're paying now and players would still be earning 6 figure salaries, so certainly no need to supplement their income by going semi pro. Let's chill out.

Mental Lental · May 29, 2013

We'll have even LESS money for the playing budget next season if we have to pay Poyet off.

mune ni kamome · May 29, 2013

Exactly. Anyone who is any good will be swept up by the Prem clubs rather than take a pay cut. Lower league clubs will be forced to play a percentage of development type squad players. Not saying we will be completely in that boat as we have a reasonable income and run a tight ship i'm led to believe but the gap between rich and poor will expand.

nwgull · May 29, 2013

mune ni kamome said:
Exactly. Anyone who is any good will be swept up by the Prem clubs rather than take a pay cut. Lower league clubs will be forced to play a percentage of development type squad players. Not saying we will be completely in that boat as we have a reasonable income and run a tight ship i'm led to believe but the gap between rich and poor will expand.

No they won't. There are only 22 Premier League clubs, each of which with a squad of 30 or so players; it's not an infinite honey pot for anyone who can play a bit of football. Those who aren't good enough to make a PL squad will have to scrape a living earning 3-4K a week in the championship.

Notters · May 29, 2013

nwgull said:
No they won't. There are only 22 Premier League clubs, each of which with a squad of 30 or so players; it's not an infinite honey pot for anyone who can play a bit of football. Those who aren't good enough to make a PL squad will have to scrape a living earning 3-4K a week in the championship.

20.

Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo! · May 29, 2013

nwgull said:
You don't think that a club turning over 20-30M a year can afford to pay 30 full time playing staff?!

There were 56 playing staff (incl youth players) in 2011/12, 51 in the final season at Withdean. Management/admin staff was 122 (64) and part-time match day staff 495 (389).

KZNSeagull · May 29, 2013

Triggaaar said:
The club hasn't re-payed TB anything, so that's not included in the figure. The clubs with an advantage are those coming down from the premier league, with their parachute payments.

TB has converted 40m of debt into shares though, I believe.

The clubs coming down only have an advantage if they can get their wages under control - in the case of QPR this will have to be drastically reduced.

Blue Valkyrie · May 29, 2013

The hope is, of course, that the teams coming down will have 3 or 4 turkeys on the wage bill, who no one else in the Premier League wants, and so can't be shifted - eating up a lot of the financial advantage.

Teams should be no longer able to do a West Ham and just throw money at a promotion push.

nwgull · May 29, 2013

Alex said:
There were 56 playing staff (incl youth players) in 2011/12, 51 in the final season at Withdean. Management/admin staff was 122 (64) and part-time match day staff 495 (389).

How much do DS and youth players earn? We're talking about the 6 figure salaried playing staff - those that are by far the biggest cost to a professional club at this level - and that means the 25-30 or so senior players. My point was that there are a finite number of opportunities for players to earn premier league wages, and that championship players will have no option but to take that cut. They can't just decide to sit on the bench of a PL team for more cash.

Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo! · May 29, 2013

KZNSeagull said:
TB has converted 40m of debt into shares though, I believe.

The clubs coming down only have an advantage if they can get their wages under control - in the case of QPR this will have to be drastically reduced.

Quite correct, this latest tranche of shares were issued in Sept 2012 so in the current financial year, possibly because club liabilities exceeded asset value.
Historically, the vast majority of TB's shareholding (currently 91% of the total issued) was acquired by conversion of debt, starting with the £16m or so when he became the majority shareholder and chairman. Under the FFP rules, the maximum share conversion limit for 2013/14 is £5m; however, I think this relates to covering "revenue" losses so he would be able to continue with this approach with debt from the stadium/training ground builds as these are excluded from FFP.

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