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Katyn massacre



Katyn massacre

This is about the 1940 massacre of Polish officers. For more details on this topic, see Polish prisoners of war in Soviet Union (after 1939).


I never knew about this until picking it up during the Stalin- Churchill prog on Monday evening, the hyprocrisy of our and the US Government was totally amazing.


Polish prisoners of war captured by the Red Army during the Soviet invasion of Poland

The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyn Forest massacre was a mass execution of Polish military officers, policemen, intellectuals and civilian prisoners of war, based on a proposal from Beria (Soviet head of Military Police and NKVD) to murder all members the Polish Officer Corps date March 5, 1940.

This official document was then approved (signed) by the entire Soviet Politburo including Stalin and Beria. The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000, with the most commonly cited number of 21,768.

The victims were murdered in the Katyn forest in Russia, the Kalinin (Tver) and Kharkiv prisons and elsewhere.

About 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, the rest being Poles arrested for allegedly being "intelligence agents, gendarmes, saboteurs, landowners, factory owners, lawyers, priests, and officials." .

Since Poland's conscription system required every unexempted university graduate to become a reserve officer, the Soviets were able to round up much of the Polish intelligentsia, and the Jewish, Ukrainian, Georgian and Belarusian intelligentsia of Polish citizenship.

Originally, "Katyn massacre" referred to the massacre at Katyn Forest, near the villages of Katyn and Gnezdovo (ca. 19 km west of Smolensk, Russia), of Polish military officers in the Kozelsk prisoner-of-war camp. It now is applied to the simultaneous executions of POWs from geographically distant Starobelsk and Ostashkov camps, and the executions of political prisoners from West Belarus and West Ukraine,shot on Stalin's orders at Katyn Forest, at the NKVD (Narodny Komissariat Vnutrennikh Del, the Soviet secret police) headquarters in Smolensk, at a Smolensk slaughterhouse, and at prisons in Kalinin (Tver), Kharkiv, Moscow, and other Soviet cities.

Nazi Germany announced the discovery of mass graves in the Katyn Forest in 1943. The revelation led to the break up of diplomatic relations between Moscow and the London-based Polish government-in-exile. The Soviet Union continued to deny the massacres until 1990, when it finally acknowledged the massacre by the NKVD, as well as the subsequent cover-up.

The Russian government admitted Soviet responsibility for the massacres, yet does not classify this action as a war crime or as an act of genocide.
 




Blackadder

Brighton Bhuna Boy
Jul 6, 2003
16,077
Haywards Heath
There is a tree from Katyn forest at the Polish Social club in Amersham, Bucks.

The Poles have felt very strongly about it for years. I agree that it's never been mentioned much over here.

There wasn't much difference between Stalin and Hitler at the end of the day.

It beggars belief that Two homicidal maniacs could be in charge of Two Super Powers at the same time!
 


e77

Well-known member
May 23, 2004
7,268
Worthing
It beggars belief that Two homicidal maniacs could be in charge of Two Super Powers at the same time!

George-W-Bush.jpg


vvp_landing.jpg
 


Man of Harveys

Well-known member
Jul 9, 2003
18,738
Brighton, UK
GPWM: Katyn is a fascinating and horrific topic. It's amazing that, even for those of us who think (rightly or wrongly) that we know a thing or two about history, about how our understanding of what happened as recently as well within our parents' lifetimes can change so drastically since the fall of the Berlin Wall. That applies to this topic, to the post-war migrations from east of modern Germany, to others, the battle of Kursk, carpet bombing and loads of others. It's why everyone should be made to sit down and read Norman Davies: as well as everything else, Katyn gives the perfect illustration of how vital the work of good historians can be.
 


SULLY COULDNT SHOOT

Loyal2Family+Albion!
Sep 28, 2004
11,283
Izmir, Southern Turkey
During the six years I lived ınin Poland you were aware of how centreal the Katyn massacre is part of the modern Polish identity. Soemthing I feel the Poles will never forgive.... although saying that they seem to have forgiven Britain's part in it.
 




seagull_special

Well-known member
Jun 9, 2008
2,931
Abu Dhabi
GPWM: Katyn is a fascinating and horrific topic. It's amazing that, even for those of us who think (rightly or wrongly) that we know a thing or two about history, about how our understanding of what happened as recently as well within our parents' lifetimes can change so drastically since the fall of the Berlin Wall. That applies to this topic, to the post-war migrations from east of modern Germany, to others, the battle of Kursk, carpet bombing and loads of others. It's why everyone should be made to sit down and read Norman Davies: as well as everything else, Katyn gives the perfect illustration of how vital the work of good historians can be.
Excuse my ignorance who is Norman Davies - author? journalist? and what has he written
 


GPWM: Katyn is a fascinating and horrific topic. It's amazing that, even for those of us who think (rightly or wrongly) that we know a thing or two about history, about how our understanding of what happened as recently as well within our parents' lifetimes can change so drastically since the fall of the Berlin Wall. That applies to this topic, to the post-war migrations from east of modern Germany, to others, the battle of Kursk, carpet bombing and loads of others. It's why everyone should be made to sit down and read Norman Davies: as well as everything else, Katyn gives the perfect illustration of how vital the work of good historians can be.


i take your advice, as a starter , what would you recommend?
 


During the six years I lived ınin Poland you were aware of how centreal the Katyn massacre is part of the modern Polish identity. Soemthing I feel the Poles will never forgive.... although saying that they seem to have forgiven Britain's part in it.

I suppose the Poles accept the bigger picture that the Soviets had to be tolerated - up until 1945.

What annoys me, is how the US maintained a cover up even in this period and cut and sliced POland up for the Soviet Union back in 1943.

We started in 1939 fighting for Poland's liberty,

sadly we lost our way.
 




Tyrone Biggums

Well-known member
Jun 25, 2006
13,498
Geelong, Australia
Wow how freaky.

Not 5 minutes ago I was reading about General Wladyslaw Sikorski and how he was seen as a liability to the allies war efforts because he called into question the Russians for commiting this crime.

Seems the allies namely England and the US treated the Poles pretty ordinary just to stay sweet with the Russians.

A few weeks after he complaiuned to tyher Red Cross about the Russians Sikorski was dead in a suspicious plane crash.

Suspicious because the only person who survived was the pilot who only did so because he was wearing a life jacket.

Because all pilots wear life jackets...

Sikorskis untimely death allowed Russia to install a puppet Polish government and the rest as they say is history.
 


Man of Harveys

Well-known member
Jul 9, 2003
18,738
Brighton, UK
He's a brilliant British historian - constantly railing against all the comfy old cliches and against our standard deficient history, written entirely from a west European perspective.

I'd say, in this context his Europe at War 1939-1945: No Simple Victory is absolutely bloody essential. And it's a damn good read too. His earlier Europe is really superb too.
 


Tyrone Biggums

Well-known member
Jun 25, 2006
13,498
Geelong, Australia
I suppose the Poles accept the bigger picture that the Soviets had to be tolerated - up until 1945.

What annoys me, is how the US maintained a cover up even in this period and cut and sliced POland up for the Soviet Union back in 1943.

We started in 1939 fighting for Poland's liberty,

sadly we lost our way.

America and England both told Mikolajczyk(Sikorski's replacement) that contacting people like the Red Cross would no longer be tolerated.

Anthony Eden the British secretary of state for foreign affairs ordered the Polish government in exile to accept Soviet territorial claims.

Which pretty much meant Russia could do with Poland as it liked in regards to dividing up which bits went where.
 




Cheeky Monkey

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2003
23,035
One of the best books I ever read was about a Polish officer who was shot several times and feigned being dead in the Katyn Massacre. When the Soviets left he (and many others) got up and crawed out from underneath the pile of cold bodies. Ended up with him living in Manhattan decades later and still being 'followed' etc. by what he assumed were Soviet agents.
 


Dandyman

In London village.
GPWM: Katyn is a fascinating and horrific topic. It's amazing that, even for those of us who think (rightly or wrongly) that we know a thing or two about history, about how our understanding of what happened as recently as well within our parents' lifetimes can change so drastically since the fall of the Berlin Wall. That applies to this topic, to the post-war migrations from east of modern Germany, to others, the battle of Kursk, carpet bombing and loads of others. It's why everyone should be made to sit down and read Norman Davies: as well as everything else, Katyn gives the perfect illustration of how vital the work of good historians can be.

I'd be cautious about Norman Davies. In his world, anti-semitism, dictatorship, crypto-fascist nationalism and deals with the Nazis are all absent from pre-war and wartime Poland despite the historical record.

I would recommend reading anything by Marek Edelman among others.
 


Dandyman

In London village.




Mick Beard BHA

Hirsute
Feb 23, 2004
570
Back in Brighton


Dandyman

In London village.
A very interesting read on a very interesting thread.

But dammit Dandyman, i was just about to go and get a Norman Davies book! Now i'm not sure.. Knew you'd get involved in this debate sooner or later though.


;) I'll try and find some other "alternative" sources a bit later.
 


A very interesting read on a very interesting thread.

But dammit Dandyman, i was just about to go and get a Norman Davies book! Now i'm not sure.. Knew you'd get involved in this debate sooner or later though.

same here, I was thinking of you as I posted :lolol:

again, I am a busy man,

what book from Marek Edelman would you recommend?
 


Dandyman

In London village.






Man of Harveys

Well-known member
Jul 9, 2003
18,738
Brighton, UK
A very interesting read on a very interesting thread.

But dammit Dandyman, i was just about to go and get a Norman Davies book! Now i'm not sure.. Knew you'd get involved in this debate sooner or later though.

The estimable Dandyman hasn't said not to read Norman Davies at all though. Because yes, the Normster does idealise Poland but when it comes to the traditional view on history, its role as anything other than a poor little victim state does get totally overlooked, as do subjects like the '44 uprising and Katyn. Personally, I reckon it's still possible to get a huge amount out of his books once you've factored in his pretty obvious Polonophilia - I've just made that word up and I like it.

Incidentally, there's a brilliant essay on Polish-German relations in his excellent East and West that I'd also recommend, although as a book more about historiography than actual events I'd recommend the others first.
 


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