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Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
60,542
Faversham
Interesting phone-in on Nicky Campbell.
One guest claims that any preferment of any minority in any selection is racism and immoral.
The DEI officers and protagonists are struggling to explain how this is wrong.

I have had rows with people in the past about this.

Simple question "do you support diversity drives in the met police"
The anti DEI guest said 'no', it is important that the met is diverse but not via hiring on basis of ethnicity (to paraphrase).

In the US I recall 'positive discrimination' was seen as a necessary evil to deal with rampant racism.

The DEI protagonists are reasonably saying that are encouraging diverse job applicants, not hiring on race.
I am happy with that, so I consider the anti DEI people are being mischievous.
Creating a landscape that facilitates opportunity is good.

But telling white males they won't get promoted 'till we have fixed our diversity landscape' is wrong.
As with all things it is the way DEI can be operated that is its weakness, not DEI itself.

Anyway....interesting debate.

Edit: I guess I would add that if there are no DEI officers, how can a company claim they are not racist hirers?
We do need data.
And if a company is hiring only white males, or middle class folk, they should be questioned.
Trump's (and Farage's apist follow-on) position to make DEI illegal is indefensible.
 






beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,494
has it occured that "encouraging diverse job applicants" is really hiring on basis of increasing diversity, prioritising candidates based on some demographics over others with similar or better qualifications? i've had "encouragement" to hire female applicants in development roles, to "make the group look better" in words of recruitment manager (plenty of diversity across the business but not so much in developers).

or put another way, DEI looks a lot like positive discrimination under a fluffy name. We can be favour of that but also recognize what it is and consequences.
 
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hart's shirt

hart's shirt

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2003
11,729
Kitbag in Dubai
I'm going for one full scale argument by the end of page 2 complete with name-calling and at least one mention of either 'gammon' or 'woke'.
 






JBizzle

JBizzle

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2010
6,849
Seaford
Withdean11 said:
Yes, any preferential treatment based on skin colour is racism.

Best person for the job, irrespective of race/sex/religion.
Click to expand...
Preferential treatment, yes, but most DEI policies I've been involved in are more about removing conscious or unconscious biases in hiring.

I worked in a sales team for years as a leader and for the majority of the time I was there we only had white men (21-25) apply for jobs because that was the culture. There was a perception that only that demographic could sell.

We then did lots of work trying to change that perception and gradually increased representation across gender and race and, guess what? They were great! Making the team more diverse brought in different perspectives, sales techniques and conversation styles.

Hiring the best person for the job is one thing, having the environment to attract the best person is quite another and a more diverse environment allowed me to hire better sales people. As a result, the hired were a good mix of ethnicity, gender and age and the team was stronger for it.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
60,542
Faversham
beorhthelm said:
has it occured that "encouraging diverse job applicants" is really hiring on basis of increasing diversity, prioritising candidates based on some demographics over others with similar or better qualifications? i've had "encouragement" to hire female applicants in development roles, to "make the group look better" in words of recruitment manager (plenty of diversity across the business but not so much in developers).
Click to expand...
Indeed.
Having somehow managed to get a diverse range of applicants, the next step is shortlisting.
Here, one must shortlist on suitability.
However (and I am on a selection committee) some will favour minority candidates (wrong in my view),
while others will favour qualifications and a subjective assessment of 'potential'.
Call me old fashioned but I am bound to favour an Oxbridge candidate over a red brick candidate*,
albeit of course I will also look at other markers of potential (there are many),
but the Oxbridge candidate will normally win.
I am sure similar 'sifting' occurs across the piece.
My overall take is that recruitment seems to work fairly albeit there will be biases.

Being 'encouraged' to select the woman, the black person, the disabled person and so on, however, is simply wrong.

Edit *As explained in a later post, this is my bias (conscious or unconscious). I have explained elsewhere why it is important to recognize biases and mitigate against their influence. I don't see 'Oxbridge' and tick 'appoint'.
 
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hans kraay fan club

hans kraay fan club

The voice of reason.
Helpful Moderator
Mar 16, 2005
63,362
Chandlers Ford
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Indeed.
Having somehow managed to get a diverse range of applicants, the next step is shortlisting.
Here, one must shortlist on suitability.
However (and I am on a selection committee) some will favour minority candidates (wrong in my view),
while others will favour qualifications and a subjective assessment of 'potential'.
Call me old fashioned but I am bound to favour an Oxbridge candidate over a red brick candidate,
albeit of course I will also look at other markers of potential (there are many),
but the Oxbridge candidate will normally win.
I am sure similar 'sifting' occurs across the piece.
My overall take is that recruitment seems to work fairly albeit there will be biases.

Being 'encouraged' to select the woman, the black person, the disabled person and so on, however, is simply wrong.
Click to expand...
Why is positive discrimination on the basis of which University they attended, any better than preferential selection on the basis of gender or race?
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
60,542
Faversham
JBizzle said:
Preferential treatment, yes, but most DEI policies I've been involved in are more about removing conscious or unconscious biases in hiring.

I worked in a sales team for years as a leader and for the majority of the time I was there we only had white men (21-25) apply for jobs because that was the culture. There was a perception that only that demographic could sell.

We then did lots of work trying to change that perception and gradually increased representation across gender and race and, guess what? They were great! Making the team more diverse brought in different perspectives, sales techniques and conversation styles.

Hiring the best person for the job is one thing, having the environment to attract the best person is quite another and a more diverse environment allowed me to hire better sales people. As a result, the hired were a good mix of ethnicity, gender and age and the team was stronger for it.
Click to expand...
That's the thing, is it not?
Encourage people to apply,
Show people there is an opportunity,
Promote role models.
Mitigate against discrimination in recruitment, shortlisting and selection.

Lots of work is needed at many different levels.
The ideal of forcing all this to stop in government employment (USA),
And removing any legal expectations of evidence of non-discrimination in the rest of society
is wrong. But this is what Farage wants :down:
 




jcdenton08

jcdenton08

Joel Veltman Fan Club
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Oct 17, 2008
17,389
On a serious note, I can only comment on my personal experience of being put into a position overseeing recruitment for my department.

The job was in theatre for a local borough council’s pantomime, which I was brought in freelance to stage manage, and told to “assist” finding suitable recruits as seasonal stage crew, which actually ended up me doing it - which I didn’t mind as they’d be working under me so I wanted to get it right and have an easier time of it.

Due to council recruitment targets of POC’s and women, I was “heavily encouraged” to hire a woman or a non-white person if at all possible.

This was an issue, because I had one woman, and one POC apply. The woman was about 5’2” and wouldn’t have been able to do the job (lots of physical manual labour and experience doing fly work, which involves lifting and tying off safely heavy ropes), and the POC barely spoke English, which would be an issue in a very H&S conscious environment.

I recruited appropriate candidates who both happened to be white and male, and was “warned” if working with them again to be sure to interview and try and hire more diverse candidates.

I didn’t work with them again after that show.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
65,337
The Fatherland
JBizzle said:
Preferential treatment, yes, but most DEI policies I've been involved in are more about removing conscious or unconscious biases in hiring.

I worked in a sales team for years as a leader and for the majority of the time I was there we only had white men (21-25) apply for jobs because that was the culture. There was a perception that only that demographic could sell.

We then did lots of work trying to change that perception and gradually increased representation across gender and race and, guess what? They were great! Making the team more diverse brought in different perspectives, sales techniques and conversation styles.

Hiring the best person for the job is one thing, having the environment to attract the best person is quite another and a more diverse environment allowed me to hire better sales people. As a result, the hired were a good mix of ethnicity, gender and age and the team was stronger for it.
Click to expand...
Well put. And totally agree.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
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Oct 8, 2003
60,542
Faversham
hans kraay fan club said:
Why is positive discrimination on the basis of which University they attended, any better than preferential selection on the basis of gender or race?
Click to expand...
What I mean is the Oxbridge candidate will almost certainly have much better A levels, a much broader experience at university, probably much more research experience (summer projects), a better written application, clearer goals, better references and on that basis will be objectively more suitable (and I would guess this to be the case before I have looked through the application - which I would of course do).

I don't just see 'Oxbridge' and shortlist. I am saying that when I look at applications the Oxbridge ones are always good. UCL and Imperial applications are almost always good. Applications from elsewhere are hit and miss.

When I said 'bound to favour', I admit this is my unconscious bias (not so unconscious, either) but I would not let that dictate my decision. I will certainly read all the applications carefully, but if I find two candidates that are hard to separate on objective terms, one from Cambridge and the other from Portsmouth, my knowledge of the two institutions is going to tip me in one direction. For another selector they may opt for the Portsmouth candidate because they believe in backing the underdog and promoting diversity. I am unable to state which approach is correct. However I cannot remember an occasion when an application from Cambridge, for example, was objectively not more suitable than an application from Portsmouth.
 
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B

Berty23

Well-known member
Jun 26, 2012
4,252
The point that everyone seems to miss is that there is lots of research evidence showing that diverse groups make better decisions. So recruiting people based on gender or ethnicity could be the right thing to do to improve the organisation.

Matthew Syed wrote about this in his book Rebel ideas. Providing the example of the CIA missing the danger of osama bin laden because the people monitoring were basically all the same person. Taught at the same uni by the same people and had the same background so they all thought the same. Studies have been showing showing that people from different backgrounds approach problems in different ways.

Apply it to real life here. Teaching for example. If you have a black potential teacher with decent grades from a working class background vs a middle class white teacher who went to independent boarding school and has excellent grades applying for a role in a deprived urban and diverse school then does the person who looks best on paper have the best chance of getting the best out of those kids? Possibly not because they won’t have the full understanding of the complexities of life for those kids. Many kids living in deprivation don’t have people to look up to and emulate. Now imagine those kids have someone who they consider the be like them teaching them. They can engage and think “hang on, if they can do it then so can I” rather than battling against someone who does not understand them.

I appreciate this is far too nuanced for the “just pick highest qualified person” debate but hopefully useful.

I can’t recommend the book enough.
 


PILTDOWN MAN

PILTDOWN MAN

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Sep 15, 2004
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I recently went for a job in the civil service, application process insisted that I couldn't give any personal information and had to remove any link to my identity from my CV. I passed the isometric tests bettering 94% of people who took the test. I passed the managing people test. The next process was to answer questions on a video link. I was sent an email saying a full interview would soon be confirmed.

Finally received an email saying I would not be offered an interview on the basis of not being in a "protected group". I asked for clarification but am yet to receive any feedback.

I haven't got a criminal record, never even been stopped as a driver (never had any points), I have passed an enhanced CRB check. I don't belong to any political party and have never done so.

I have always said that people from all backgrounds should be encouraged to apply for jobs, diversity is key to a balanced workforce but it should be the best person for the job who is offered it.
 


Gabbiano

Gabbiano

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2017
2,087
Spank the Manc
It is also true that a more diverse workplace is more likely to challenge the team and lead to higher levels of things like innovation.

Introducing different perspectives does make you think about problems from a new angle, because we all approach a problem building on our own personal experience.

If you've worked on multidisciplinary projects you can appreciate that an engineer's knowledge can complement that of an architect or an ecologist or whatever it may be. The same is true for personal and cultural backgrounds; it reduces the risk of an echo chamber.
 


hans kraay fan club

hans kraay fan club

The voice of reason.
Helpful Moderator
Mar 16, 2005
63,362
Chandlers Ford
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
What I mean is the Oxbridge candidate will almost certainly have much better A levels, a much broader experience at university, probably much more research experience (summer projects), a better written application, clearer goals, better references and on that basis will be objectively more suitable (and I would guess this to be the case before I have looked through the application - which I would of course do).

I don't just see 'Oxbridge' and shortlist. I am saying that when I look at applications the Oxbridge ones are always good. UCL and Imperial applications are almost always good. Applications from elsewhere are hit and miss.

When I said 'bound to favour', I admit this is my unconscious bias (not so unconscious, either) but I would not let that dictate my decision. I will certainly read all the applications carefully, but if I find two candidates that are hard to separate on objective terms, one from Cambridge and the other from Portsmouth, my knowledge of the two institutions is going to tip me in one direction. For another selector they may opt for the Portsmouth candidate because they believe in backing the underdog and promoting diversity. I am unable to state which approach is correct. However I cannot remember an occasion when an application from Cambridge, for example, was objectively more suitable than an application from Portsmouth.
Click to expand...
(ignoring the last line, where I presume you have missed a 'not')

This is awful, and I think you need to print it out, and read it back to yourself many, many times.

Literally, you are exposing your prejudice - that you BEGIN the selection process with a preconceived idea of who 'will be' the better candidate, and that prejudice guides you through the whole process.

The Portsmouth candidate will absolutely not be considered by you if they are the equal of the Oxbridge candidate (as the latter is 'bound to' have had broader experiences, yada, yada). Only if the Portsmouth candidate is objectively BETTER than the Oxbridge will you give them fair consideration.

Frightening.
 




Green Cross Code Man

Green Cross Code Man

Wunt be druv
Mar 30, 2006
21,249
Eastbourne
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Edit: I guess I would add that if there are no DEI officers, how can a company claim they are not racist hirers?
We do need data.
Click to expand...
Yes data is the key. If a company has a diverse workforce, that is proof enough that they are not racist hirers and it matters not one jot if they lack DEI officers.
 


jcdenton08

jcdenton08

Joel Veltman Fan Club
NSC Patron
Oct 17, 2008
17,389
Berty23 said:
The point that everyone seems to miss is that there is lots of research evidence showing that diverse groups make better decisions. So recruiting people based on gender or ethnicity could be the right thing to do to improve the organisation.

Matthew Syed wrote about this in his book Rebel ideas. Providing the example of the CIA missing the danger of osama bin laden because the people monitoring were basically all the same person. Taught at the same uni by the same people and had the same background so they all thought the same. Studies have been showing showing that people from different backgrounds approach problems in different ways.

Apply it to real life here. Teaching for example. If you have a black potential teacher with decent grades from a working class background vs a middle class white teacher who went to independent boarding school and has excellent grades applying for a role in a deprived urban and diverse school then does the person who looks best on paper have the best chance of getting the best out of those kids? Possibly not because they won’t have the full understanding of the complexities of life for those kids. Many kids living in deprivation don’t have people to look up to and emulate. Now imagine those kids have someone who they consider the be like them teaching them. They can engage and think “hang on, if they can do it then so can I” rather than battling against someone who does not understand them.

I appreciate this is far too nuanced for the “just pick highest qualified person” debate but hopefully useful.

I can’t recommend the book enough.
Click to expand...
Absolutely.

My point is in my experience it is simply impossible based on the candidates available to make an inclusive hire if the candidates aren’t available to you who could actually do the job advertised.

Not all jobs are the same, not all industries are the same. Job requirements vary, not every protected group instantly makes them a hireable candidate in every profession in every part of the country, which is where DEI initiatives need to use common sense and show flexibility.

I was told in no uncertain terms I was expected to hire either a woman or a POC for at least one of the two roles I was recruiting for, because the council had targets in these areas.

That shouldn’t happen.
 


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