[Albion] List of players that have gone backwards under the current coach

chaileyjem · Monday at 9:01 AM

1066familyman said:
Even that isn't clear. I believe 'we can be regularly in Europe' too. I'm just wondering where 'this season' has been stated?

Just because that message was handed out at the beginning of this season to staff, doesn't mean that wasn't actually a 'long term vision plan', or whatever businesses call these sort of things these days In fact, the word regularly clearly means he's not just talking about this season.

regularly also implies that its not EVERY season.

Uh_huh_him · Monday at 9:04 AM

Jeremiah said:
Unfortunately , at the moment, Pervis has lost the art of defending. He gives away a lot of dangerous free kicks by pulling back his winger and as we are not defending in swinging free kicks well it often looks bad on him.

He has also started to just aggressively push players in the chest when they are in possession.
So far he hasn't conceded a free-kick for it, I'm nort entirely sure why.
It looks really weird

Gabbiano · Monday at 9:06 AM

We keep starting seasons brilliantly before our form falls off a cliff later in the season. This raises fan expectations.

We can all see that the team is capable of getting European football, but for some naivety and a few terrible performances in key games.

We are developing a manager this season as well as a lot of players. There have been some very questionable tactics and lineups on occasion, and some great ones too.

Some players have improved, some got worse. MANY are new to the PL or have been long term injured. The main problem is a snail pace defence with fullbacks constantly out of position.

Mid table is where we deserve to be this year, but we could have finished higher if things had fallen into place better. So be it.

I'm not convinced by Fab but he won't be going anywhere, and I'm sure he'll improve next season. When he does leave I hope we bring a more experienced manager in with a record of improving youngsters, not a other youngster himself as a manager.

1066familyman · Monday at 9:06 AM

chaileyjem said:
regularly also implies that its not EVERY season.

Quite.

I'm still yet to see anyone point to where it's been clearly stated by TB that he expects Europe this season.

chaileyjem · Monday at 9:12 AM

Bloom said this in November
"
We are delighted with Fabian’s start and we don’t want [Europe] to be a one-off.
“We have huge ambitions as a club to carry on.
“We know how tough it is. The Premier League is by far and away the toughest league in the world.
“To get in those European spots was really difficult but we have big ambitions."

1066familyman · Monday at 9:12 AM

Uh_huh_him said:
He has also started to just aggressively push players in the chest when they are in possession.
So far he hasn't conceded a free-kick for it, I'm nort entirely sure why.
It looks really weird

The weirdest one was how he let McAteer get completely under his skin in that Leicester game. I remember at the time thinking how bizarre it all was. Estupinán was lucky to not get himself sent off in that game really.

Guinness Boy · Monday at 9:17 AM

JBizzle said:
Interesting thread, considering three of the players on @Guinness Boy's fishing trip started their decline last season under RDZ. Adingra was awful post-AFCON, Dunk was awful post-Roma, Estupinan hasn't been the same since Villa last season.

I was listening to West Ham fans draining their team's energy with their incessant negative chanting on Saturday and it made me think of the same profile of fan that crops up on here whenever we lose (or nearly lose and **** the bed before the final whistle). Is there anything to be gained from constantly chipping away at our manager and players?

I know it's much more important to be load and negative for some people because it's the only attention they get, but come on. Support the team. We played pretty well even before the final two goals on Saturday, and are still well in with a shout for Europe. Cheer up.

So how are tactics that constantly put our defence under pressure supposed to help these players to recover?

We might as well have not had a left hand side on Saturday until the substitutions. Any decent opposition coach would have started with Fullkrug or at least put him on after about 20 minutes and set Bowen loose down the right. Luckily it was Potter, but when he finally swallowed his stubbornness they scored within a few minutes.

We could possibly get into Europe still this season. We could possibly get our second highest ever number of points and position. But this season is almost unique and there'll still be a feeling we've underachieved thanks to basic errors in a lot of games leaving points on the table. It started with a summer window where most clubs had to rein in spending or do dodgy deals with each other but we could spend the PSR headroom we'd accumulated. Then we've had a season where three of the big six have imploded and none, bar Liverpool, have impressed. As a result Newcastle have won a major trophy, Palace might and Forest will probably get into the Champions League.

I fully accept we're never going to compete with Liverpool, City, Arsenal et al but we should surely be competing with Palace and Forest? Next season one of Spurs or United will find their way back into the top ten, City could be back to being City and we'll probably still have the Bournemouth, Fulham, Villa and Palaces of this world snipping at our heals. We've missed out in the most open season for major trophies and CL places there'll be in a generation, thanks to being absolutely awful at the back unless Veltman's fit.

Uh_huh_him · Monday at 9:18 AM

Gabbiano said:
We keep starting seasons brilliantly before our form falls off a cliff later in the season. This raises fan expectations.

We can all see that the team is capable of getting European football, but for some naivety and a few terrible performances in key games.

We are developing a manager this season as well as a lot of players. There have been some very questionable tactics and lineups on occasion, and some great ones too.

Some players have improved, some got worse. MANY are new to the PL or have been long term injured. The main problem is a snail pace defence with fullbacks constantly out of position.

Mid table is where we deserve to be this year, but we could have finished higher if things had fallen into place better. So be it.

I'm not convinced by Fab but he won't be going anywhere, and I'm sure he'll improve next season. When he does leave I hope we bring a more experienced manager in with a record of improving youngsters, not a other youngster himself as a manager.

Do we though?
This season and last season we had horrific injury lists which massively hampered our ability to compete.
The season before we bounced back from a bitterly disappointing semi-final defeat to qualify for Europe.
In 21/22 we took 10 pts from our last 4 fixtures to finish 9th.

trueblue · Monday at 9:20 AM

1066familyman said:
Fair enough if that's the impression you've got. It's just not my impression as I don't ever recall it being clearly stated, for this season.

For the future?, definitely! Like I've said before, we belong in this division now and need fear no one. No reason at all why we shouldn't be challenging for Europe regularly once things bed in.

I fail to see how this isn't a transitional season, though, given the amount of sudden change. Add in the injuries to that as well ( although FH has never used that as an excuse) and I just think Europe this season will have been a massive achievement and beyond any reasonable expectation.

Lose, for instance, Baleba and Mitoma in the summer and then next season is a transitional season. Then Dunk retires, Van Hecke and Joao Pedro go the following year, another transitional season. And so on. It's an excuse that could be used forever. It didn't become a 'transitional season' when Potter walked out. Liverpool haven't written off Slot's first year to transition. Moyes took over at Everton and had a huge immediate impact through his ability simply to organise a team, likewise Pereira at Wolves. It's the Premier League. Everything's a fight, no-one can cruise.

I'm not using it as a stick to beat Hurzeler with and won't be storming the Amex gates if we finish mid-table. I just think there's nothing wrong with a mindset that says Europe should be the objective given the squad we have now. It certainly will be for the type of players we're signing at £30m+ fees. If we're going to attract those players and keep the best ones we've got for long enough to have success ourselves, it has to be the target.

1066familyman · Monday at 9:26 AM

trueblue said:
Lose, for instance, Baleba and Mitoma in the summer and then next season is a transitional season. Then Dunk retires, Van Hecke and Joao Pedro go the following year, another transitional season. And so on. It's an excuse that could be used forever. It wasn't a 'transitional season' when Potter walked out. Liverpool haven't written off Slot's first year to transition. Moyes took over at Everton and had a huge immediate impact through his ability simply to organise a team, likewise Pereira at Wolves. It's the Premier League. Everything's a fight, no-one can cruise.

I'm not using it as a stick to beat Hurzeler with and won't be storming the Amex gates if we finish mid-table. I just think there's nothing wrong with a mindset that says Europe should be the objective given the squad we have now. It certainly will be for the type of players we're signing at £30m+ fees. If we're going to attract those players and keep the best ones we've got for long enough to have success ourselves, it has to be the target.

Plenty of good points, but I think it's a bit unfair to compare FH at this stage in his managerial career with Slot, Moyes and Pereira.

JBizzle · Monday at 9:29 AM

Guinness Boy said:
So how are tactics that constantly put our defence under pressure supposed to help these players to recover?

We might as well have not had a left hand side on Saturday until the substitutions. Any decent opposition coach would have started with Fullkrug or at least put him on after about 20 minutes and set Bowen loose down the right. Luckily it was Potter, but when he finally swallowed his stubbornness they scored within a few minutes.

We could possibly get into Europe still this season. We could possibly get our second highest ever number of points and position. But this season is almost unique and there'll still be a feeling we've underachieved thanks to basic errors in a lot of games leaving points on the table. It started with a summer window where most clubs had to rein in spending or do dodgy deals with each other but we could spend the PSR headroom we'd accumulated. Then we've had a season where three of the big six have imploded and none, bar Liverpool, have impressed. As a result Newcastle have won a major trophy, Palace might and Forest will probably get into the Champions League.

I fully accept we're never going to compete with Liverpool, City, Arsenal et al but we should surely be competing with Palace and Forest? Next season one of Spurs or United will find their way back into the top ten, City could be back to being City and we'll probably still have the Bournemouth, Fulham, Villa and Palaces of this world snipping at our heals. We've missed out in the most open season for major trophies and CL places there'll be in a generation, thanks to being absolutely awful at the back unless Veltman's fit.

Probably should have bought some defenders then as opposed to 200 7s and 10s.

Guinness Boy · Monday at 9:31 AM

JBizzle said:
Probably should have bought some defenders then as opposed to 200 7s and 10s.

Indeed we should have.

Kalimantan Gull · Monday at 9:36 AM

trueblue said:
Lose, for instance, Baleba and Mitoma in the summer and then next season is a transitional season. Then Dunk retires, Van Hecke and Joao Pedro go the following year, another transitional season. And so on. It's an excuse that could be used forever. It wasn't a 'transitional season' when Potter walked out. Liverpool haven't written off Slot's first year to transition. Moyes took over at Everton and had a huge immediate impact through his ability simply to organise a team, likewise Pereira at Wolves.

I'm not using it as a stick to beat Hurzeler with and won't be storming the Amex gates if we finish mid-table. I just think there's nothing wrong with a mindset that says Europe should be the objective. It certainly will be for the type of players we're signing at £30m+ fees. to sign now. If we're going to attract those players and keep the best ones we've got for long enough to have success ourselves, it has to be the target.

I think we should refer to this season more as a 'reset' than a 'transitional season'

We had the Hughton era of promotion and survival; then we reset with Potter, new style of play and new style of recruitment. We built a great squad, almost derailed by Potter leaving but RDZ picked up the reins with barely a hitch and it culminated in the Europe qualification season and Europa Cup run. I would say this era came to an end on the fields of Rome; with the great midfield of Lallana, Gross, Caicedo and MacAllister at an end it was time to reset again.

This current iteration seems to place more focus on power, strength and speed; epitomised by the likes of Rutter, Minteh, Baleba, Wieffer, Gomez and Yalcouye; and I am sure there will be more additions this summer as we develop this current era further. Yes players will be replaced but that doesn't mean we reset again, the previous era coped with a Bissouma-Caicedo-Gilmour transition, a Trossard-Mitoma transition, a Burn-Colwill-van Hecke transition, a Cucurella-Estupinan transition - these kind of changes are baked in. By contrast a reset is more about putting a lid on the previous era and starting afresh and renewed, with an altered focus to tactics, recruitment and so on. I guess thats how you keep up with the arms race that is the premier league, nothing stays the same, tactics get found out, styles get changed. You have to be proactive. So by its very nature its going to be different to what went before...

So if I may be so bold, I would say we are now in the Third Era of Brighton's Premier League stay, and may it be a great one

1066familyman · Monday at 9:37 AM

Guinness Boy said:
So how are tactics that constantly put our defence under pressure supposed to help these players to recover?

We might as well have not had a left hand side on Saturday until the substitutions. Any decent opposition coach would have started with Fullkrug or at least put him on after about 20 minutes and set Bowen loose down the right. Luckily it was Potter, but when he finally swallowed his stubbornness they scored within a few minutes.

We could possibly get into Europe still this season. We could possibly get our second highest ever number of points and position. But this season is almost unique and there'll still be a feeling we've underachieved thanks to basic errors in a lot of games leaving points on the table. It started with a summer window where most clubs had to rein in spending or do dodgy deals with each other but we could spend the PSR headroom we'd accumulated. Then we've had a season where three of the big six have imploded and none, bar Liverpool, have impressed. As a result Newcastle have won a major trophy, Palace might and Forest will probably get into the Champions League.

I fully accept we're never going to compete with Liverpool, City, Arsenal et al but we should surely be competing with Palace and Forest? Next season one of Spurs or United will find their way back into the top ten, City could be back to being City and we'll probably still have the Bournemouth, Fulham, Villa and Palaces of this world snipping at our heals. We've missed out in the most open season for major trophies and CL places there'll be in a generation, thanks to being absolutely awful at the back unless Veltman's fit.

So what you're essentially saying is that in the context of how other teams have been this season, we should be qualifying for Europe?

It's a fair point in many ways, and our position in the league for most of the season almost confirms that. It's been a bizarre season for this league, in terms of how open it's been.

Would TB have known that before the season started though, and so consequently expected Europe this season? I'm not convinced myself.

chaileyjem · Monday at 9:48 AM

JBizzle said:
Probably should have bought some defenders then as opposed to 200 7s and 10s.

We spent £25m on a new full back last summer . And In the summer of 2023 - we spent £20m on a new centre back. Wieffer and Baleba weren't cheap and have looked fine in the back four in the last few games.
All of Lamptey, Hinshelwood, Dunk, JPVH, Webster, Igor, Esupinan, Kadioglu, Milner, March, Wieffer, Veltman have been absent for periods this season which hasn't helped and harsh to argue it should have been foreseen.

Guinness Boy · Monday at 9:50 AM

1066familyman said:
So what you're essentially saying is that in the context of how other teams have been this season, we should be qualifying for Europe?

It's a fair point in many ways, and our position in the league for most of the season almost confirms that. It's been a bizarre season for this league, in terms of how open it's been.

Yes, exactly and it's mostly been defensively that we've thrown things away. Losing a 2-0 lead to Wolves in the last few minutes could be seen as unfortunate, since we were one good pass and a more diagonal line from 3-1 but repeating that away to Leicester? That's on the coach and players equally. Having our goal difference reduced by seven in one game? Purely down to the coach. Both Palace games on players and coach. Playing suicide ball away to Chelsea - a coaching error we apparently learned from, only we repeated it at Brentford. Failing to put away Ipswich, Leicester and Saints (who should have beaten us) at home? Repeatedly poor.

On the plus side of course you do have the comeback wins against Spurs and West Ham but they don't negate the repeated mistakes in some of the matches above. I just think with Ferdie fit, with more of an effort to close the centre back deal we were trying (before bringing in someone obviously not ready in January) and with a little bit more organisation and a little less openness we're probably sitting fifth or sixth right now, maybe higher.

Would TB have known that before the season started though, and so consequently expected Europe this season? I'm not convinced myself.

He's a betting man and I'm sure we'd have good stats and data on our competition. But some things aren't foreseeable by anyone. Spurs losing an entire defence for most of the season, Amorim, one of the best regarded coaches in mainland Europe being a total failure at United, Rodri and KDB breaking at exactly the same time? No, no one could have seen that.

Oh_aye · Monday at 9:53 AM

Milano said:
Adingra is in the wrong league, he is too lightweight for the EPL. He was crap again yesterday. Mitoma is on a completely different level.
If Lamptey is fit next weekend then I’d start him ahead of Pervis.

I hate saying this about our players but he's absolutely bobbins. Just scores a great goal or assist every now and then confuses people into thinking he's a player. But more often than not he's the place where promising opportunities go to die. I wouldnt mind if he was really hard working and diligent like Minteh but he was an unarsed space cadet in the first half as he usually is when he starts. Followed by the customary ten minutes of improvement in the second half after a rocket up the arse at half time before being hauled off for the umpteenth shin control.

Brings the absolute worst out of Pervis as well, leaving gaps all over the place and watching play with his hands on his hips. He does my head in. Should be playing in The Netherlands or Belgium or somewhere.

chaileyjem · Monday at 9:56 AM

Guinness Boy said:
On the plus side of course you do have the comeback wins against Spurs and West Ham but they don't negate the repeated mistakes in some of the matches above.

and beating Chelsea twice in a week, avoiding defeat v Arsenal (twice), doing the double over Man United, and Bournemouth, beating Newcastle twice, and coming back to draw v Villa.

trueblue · Monday at 10:02 AM

1066familyman said:
Plenty of good points, but I think it's a bit unfair to compare FH at this stage in his managerial career with Slot, Moyes and Pereira.

Fair point. Perhaps then the question mark is whether having a raw coach and a raw squad simultaneously is the best combination to achieve the club’s ambitions and attain the improvement in players to finance that. Maybe long term it is. The tricky part is keeping the squad together in the meantime and continuing to attract top players.

As Tony Bloom is generally a genius, I will ignore my nagging fear that it’s a step too far and trust he’s got it right, yet again.

Guinness Boy · Monday at 10:12 AM

chaileyjem said:
and beating Chelsea twice in a week, avoiding defeat v Arsenal (twice), doing the double over Man United, and Bournemouth, beating Newcastle twice, and coming back to draw v Villa.

Sure. We've had some good games and good runs. I'm suggesting we've underachieved, not that we've failed. There are a number of reasons for it, but to return to the point of the thread, one of them is having a tactical game that doesn't suit several players in our squad.

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[Albion] List of players that have gone backwards under the current coach

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