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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)



Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
55,389
Goldstone
The Clamp said:
I really don’t “need to be able to guess”.
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You're trying to make the argument that we should send troops to Ukraine now. Our government can't do that without working out what the consequences would be, and I don't think you're in a position to say they're making the wrong decision when you haven't even tried to work out what the consequences would be.


The Clamp said:
But the fight is going to happen.

I’d rather it be sooner than later.
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You're stating that as fact and you're wrong, it's not a fact. Other possibilities include:
1) Arming Ukraine whilst restricting Russian trade to the extent that Russia can no longer afford to prosecute the war, and they withdraw.
2) A united Europe arming themselves to the extent that Russia knows they'd badly lose a war, and provide security guarantees to areas under threat from Russia (eg, a pact with the Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, and the unoccupied area of Ukraine).

These examples could lead to an end to the current conflict, without any European boots on the ground. You stating that we are definitely going to have a military war with Russia so we might as well start now is mad.
 
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The Clamp

The Clamp

Well-known member
Jan 11, 2016
27,129
West is BEST
jackanada said:
I agree he's a witless ****, but there is an element of truth to this. I remember taking to a nice Ukrainian tiler well over a decade ago, and while we were just chatting shit he was very determined to make clear that he was Russian Ukrainian, not Ukrainian Ukrainian despite me offering no encouragement or even an opening to such information.
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Would these perhaps be the thousands of Russians that moved into areas of Ukraine invaded by Russia in 2014?

Incentivised by rock bottom prices on property and businesses stolen from the people of Ukraine who were either murdered or deported out of that area of Ukraine?
Triggaaar said:
You're trying to make the argument that we should send troops to Ukraine now. Our government can't do that without working out what the consequences would be, and I don't think you're in a position to say they're making the wrong decision when you haven't even tried to work out what the consequences would be.




You're stating that as fact and you're wrong, it's not a fact. Other possibilities include:
1) Arming Ukraine whilst restricting Russian trade to the extent that Russia can no longer afford to prosecute the war, and they withdraw.
2) A united Europe arming themselves to the extent that Russia knows they'd badly lose a war, and prove security guarantees to areas under threat from Russia (eg, a pact with the Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, and the unoccupied area of Ukraine).

These examples could lead to an end to the current conflict, without any European boots on the ground. You stating that we are definitely going to have a military war with Russia so we might as well start now is mad.
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Okay.
 
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Deportivo Seagull

Deportivo Seagull

I should coco
Jul 22, 2003
5,942
Mid Sussex
raymondo said:
If it all goes horribly wrong, the EU can blame the UK!
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If it all goes horribly wrong that will be the least of our worries.
I do know from working in a European joint venture that the brits invariably acted as peace maker and so I’m not so surprised.
 
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Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
55,389
Goldstone
jackanada said:
I agree he's a witless ****, but there is an element of truth to this. I remember taking to a nice Ukrainian tiler well over a decade ago, and while we were just chatting shit he was very determined to make clear that he was Russian Ukrainian, not Ukrainian Ukrainian despite me offering no encouragement or even an opening to such information.
Click to expand...

But that makes no difference at all to what's being discussed. If you go to Canada and meet some people who are French Canadian, that doesn't suddenly mean France has the right to annex a chunk of Canada.

There were Russians inside of Ukraine. They are free to f*** off back to Russia.
 


The Clamp

The Clamp

Well-known member
Jan 11, 2016
27,129
West is BEST
Triggaaar said:
But that makes no difference at all to what's being discussed. If you go to Canada and meet some people who are French Canadian, that doesn't suddenly mean France has the right to annex a chunk of Canada.

There were Russians inside of Ukraine. They are free to f*** off back to Russia.
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Apologies didn’t mean to just type “okay”

Your points on my previous post are obviously valid.

I sometimes just want to see Russia smashed into the ground.

But as you say, it’s not as simple at that.
 




Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
55,389
Goldstone
The Clamp said:
Apologies didn’t mean to just type “okay”

Your points on my previous post are obviously valid.

I sometimes just want to see Russia smashed into the ground.

But as you say, it’s not as simple at that.
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We all (well, 99% of us) want to see Russian aggression destroyed. What upsets me about the West the most is that they didn't do enough (anything?) after 2014. We're hear because of Western weakness. Obviously and because Putin is an evil dictator, but that part was out of our control. If the West had done their job, he would have been stopped.

We are already at war with Russia, just not not on the front line yet, and I too just want us to get stuck in and deal with the problem head on. But I know it's not as simple as that. And Trump is currently making it even harder.
 


SouthSaxon

SouthSaxon

Stand or fall
NSC Patron
Jan 25, 2025
887
For any of the 1% lurking here, to remove any remaining doubt of Russian intentions: here they are on state TV musing about an alliance with Germany in which they divide up all of Europe between them.

Unhinged, yes, but that hasn’t stopped people trying in the past.

 


Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
55,389
Goldstone
SouthSaxon said:
For any of the 1% lurking here, to remove any remaining doubt of Russian intentions: here they are on state TV musing about an alliance with Germany in which they divide up all of Europe between them.

Unhinged, yes, but that hasn’t stopped people trying in the past.

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WTF is that?
 
















A1X

A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
22,525
Deepest, darkest Sussex
Eric the meek said:
Another day, and Trump drops another bollock.

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Probably time to start selling your shares in Boeing and Lockheed Martin if you’ve got them, they’re going to be thrilled about this
 




jackanada

jackanada

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2011
3,674
Brighton
Triggaaar said:
But that makes no difference at all to what's being discussed. If you go to Canada and meet some people who are French Canadian, that doesn't suddenly mean France has the right to annex a chunk of Canada.

There were Russians inside of Ukraine. They are free to f*** off back to Russia.
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That's not what I meant. I'm talking about families who have lived in the region way before the soviet union who consider themselves ethnically Russian.
It doesn't justify anything Russia has done but that single part has truth to it
 


Triggaaar

Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
55,389
Goldstone
jackanada said:
That's not what I meant. I'm talking about families who have lived in the region way before the soviet union who consider themselves ethnically Russian.
It doesn't justify anything Russia has done but that single part has truth to it
Click to expand...

Which part has a truth to it? Yes it's true that there are some people who lived in Ukraine who considered themselves Russian-Ukrainian. Just like there are people who consider themselves French-Canadian. But Steve Witless said:

"They’re Russian-speaking, there have been referendums where the overwhelming majority of the people have indicated they want to be under Russian rule. I think that’s the key issue in the conflict.”

and you replied that 'there is an element of truth to this'.

NO THERE ISN'T!

The people did not vote to indicate they wanted to be under Russian rule, that's complete bullshit. And the fact that there were some people who considered themselves Russian-Ukrainian doesn't change that.
 


P

papachris

Well-known member
Jul 17, 2020
871
Viti, Estonia and Torrevieja, Spain
jackanada said:
That's not what I meant. I'm talking about families who have lived in the region way before the soviet union who consider themselves ethnically Russian.
It doesn't justify anything Russia has done but that single part has truth to it
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If they are so desperate to be Russian, they could move there. What Russia has done for many years is take over other countries then encourage Russians to move there. I live in Estonia. Plenty of Russians moved here during soviet times. It doesn't make it Russia. And Estonian's are fiercely independent
 


Nobby

Nobby

Well-known member
Sep 29, 2007
3,012
papachris said:
America is English speaking, does that mean it should belong to England then?
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jackanada said:
I agree he's a witless ****, but there is an element of truth to this. I remember taking to a nice Ukrainian tiler well over a decade ago, and while we were just chatting shit he was very determined to make clear that he was Russian Ukrainian, not Ukrainian Ukrainian despite me offering no encouragement or even an opening to such information.
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So you’re saying that one conversation means everyone in the Donbass wants to be run by Russia?
Ever heard of democracy
 




Nobby

Nobby

Well-known member
Sep 29, 2007
3,012
jackanada said:
That's not what I meant. I'm talking about families who have lived in the region way before the soviet union who consider themselves ethnically Russian.
It doesn't justify anything Russia has done but that single part has truth to it
Click to expand...
I would tell you the story of a friend of mine who moved his family from the Donbass because he could see what was coming
He hates the Ruscists with a passion
But it would be a waste of my time
 




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