[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

Audax · May 14, 2024

As much as I really, really hate the current Tory government and the vast majority of their policies, I'd actually be in favour of a well-designed system for means testing recipients of any form of payments from the government.

IMO means testing is actually a policy that would benefit the left. Stop, or reduce, funding going to those who don't need it so that the funding available can go further in supporting those who do need it. It's not about equality ... it's about equity. And, I believe, ensuring those who are less well off (especially as they reach retirement age) are better supported will help ease pressure elsewhere: for example, poverty generally correlates with worse health and worse health correlates with increased pressure on the NHS.

The problem with means testing isn't the concept in itself. The problem is designing a system of means testing that works and has the fewest loopholes possible. I wouldn't trust the current Tory party to even get close to doing that.

keaton · May 14, 2024

Thunder Bolt said:
Would you be happy living on £9K a year? A very small private pension of £3500 takes you above the tax threshold so paying income tax.
That is below the minimum wage.

There are a few wealthy pensioners but they aren’t the norm and I can guarantee they aren’t women.

Isn't that an argument for raising tax thresholds though?

Thunder Bolt · May 14, 2024

keaton said:
Isn't that an argument for raising tax thresholds though?

It is, but why the snooping in bank accounts?

Thunder Bolt · May 14, 2024

Audax said:
As much as I really, really hate the current Tory government and the vast majority of their policies, I'd actually be in favour of a well-designed system for means testing recipients of any form of payments from the government.

IMO means testing is actually a policy that would benefit the left. Stop, or reduce, funding going to those who don't need it so that the funding available can go further in supporting those who do need it. It's not about equality ... it's about equity. And, I believe, ensuring those who are less well off (especially as they reach retirement age) are better supported will help ease pressure elsewhere: for example, poverty generally correlates with worse health and worse health correlates with increased pressure on the NHS.

The problem with means testing isn't the concept in itself. The problem is designing a system of means testing that works and has the fewest loopholes possible. I wouldn't trust the current Tory party to even get close to doing that.

Monitoring bank accounts, to see if pensions can be reduced, cutting back care facilities to practically zero so all care has to be paid for.

My friend was pressured to sell her three bedroomed house to pay for her husband's care home, when he had a stroke. She stated her daughter lived out of Sussex, with a disabled granddaughter, and would visit regularly at the weekend, to help, and also to visit her father. It put massive stress on her when she didn't want to sell and live in a one bedroomed flat. She tried for months to care for him herself, almost having a nervous breakdown.
We used to have well run council care homes for the elderly, but they have all gone.
I know this is just one example but I imagine it isn't a rare one.

Thunder Bolt · May 14, 2024

cheshunt seagull said:
Her speech had all the hallmarks of someone who had lost contact with reality. She also talked about civil servants being distracted by an obsession with diversity. Having worked in a public service diversity was about ensuring that the workforce reflected the society we served and that as wide a section of society as possible had the opportunity to contribute and develop. This gave us the best chance of employing the best people. It was also about services being accessible to all. This was not a ‘woke’ obsession or distraction but simply being committed and professional. Truth is that when I retired 2 years ago we still had some way to go. As for lanyards, I also wore a BHAFC one.

As did I, which prompted some good banter when I worked with colleagues supporting West Ham, Palace, Spurs etc etc.

The Clamp · May 14, 2024

There is no way I’m retiring in this country, whoever is in power.

Unless you are very comfortably off, growing old is awful in the U.K.

Unless you are a working unit or the government can raid your bank account, you are useless to them and they’d rather you just hurry up and die.

There is zero dignity in being a pensioner in this nation. If you’re teet has run dry and the government piggies can no longer suckle, they make it abundantly clear; you are a waste of food and daily maintenance.

happypig · May 14, 2024

The Clamp said:
There is no way I’m retiring in this country, whoever is in power.

Unless you are very comfortably off, growing old is awful in the U.K.

Unless you are a working unit or the government can raid your bank account, you are useless to them and they’d rather you just hurry up and die.

There is zero dignity in being a pensioner in this nation. If you’re teet has run dry and the government piggies can no longer suckle, they make it abundantly clear; you are a waste of food and daily maintenance.

If you haven't got a shedload of money then, thanks to Brexit, forget it. In Greece you need something like a €250k property, €4k per month income and private healthcare.
I had planned to move to Spain when I retired in 2019 but with Covid and Brexit that's gone out of the window.

The Clamp · May 14, 2024

happypig said:
If you haven't got a shedload of money then, thanks to Brexit, forget it. In Greece you need something like a €250k property, €4k per month income and private healthcare.
I had planned to move to Spain when I retired in 2019 but with Covid and Brexit that's gone out of the window.

Brexit doesn’t affect me in that sense as I am an Irish citizen and still have freedom of movement.

As for the financials, that’s going to be less of a problem abroad that it will ever be in the UK.

MJsGhost · May 14, 2024

Thunder Bolt said:
Would you be happy living on £9K a year? A very small private pension of £3500 takes you above the tax threshold so paying income tax.
That is below the minimum wage.

There are a few wealthy pensioners but they aren’t the norm and I can guarantee they aren’t women.

I'd struggle to raise my young family on £9k, yes.

My point is about means testing in general. Where they set the threshold(s) is another matter. Nobody should be left struggling after paying their dues, in good faith, their whole working lives. However, doling out the state pension to those who really don't need it seems a waste of money to me, so the concept of means testing appeals.

The majority of the UK's wealth is held by those over 55, so I assume a decent proportion of that is held by pensioners. It's probable that the vast majority of that wealth is held by the richest 5%, so the actual number of wealthy pensioners could indeed be small and therefore means-testing might not save much anyway...

Audax · May 14, 2024

Thunder Bolt said:
Monitoring bank accounts, to see if pensions can be reduced, cutting back care facilities to practically zero so all care has to be paid for.

Hence why I said any means testing system needs to be very well designed. Things I would *not* be in favour of includes both of those things you mention here. Actively monitoring bank accounts as part of the means testing is a step too far, IMO, especially given the government has already proven it can't be trusted to monitor this sort of stuff properly with the Carer's Allowance overpayments issues.

On your second point - I don't see what that has to do with means testing? Those cut backs were done in the name of "austerity" and urgently needs to be reversed. BUT one way of helping make those facilities affordable for everyone is to means test. Subsidise (on a sliding scale between 100% and 0%) based on means testing.

I would say here, however, that I'm in no way suggesting that building a robust means testing system is easy. It's not. Especially when you get into the realms of protecting inheritances (eg the family home - I'm not advocating that family homes should be sold off because means testing says you have assets that can fund care).

What we do need to be thinking about is how we build an equitable NHS, equitable social care, equitable elderly care systems, etc. The NHS is a beautiful thing. But what I would say is that I'm stunned it's lasted as long as it has when it is based on "free to all at point of access". It's expensive to do, and there is a proportion of society who don't actually need it; some of whom choose not to use it, but not all of them.

In many respects the NHS and National Insurance in the UK has delayed the UK when it comes to helping individuals to prepare for later life / help take the burden off government. For example, mandating employers offer pensions to a minimum level and that individuals must opt out (rather than in) is something that other countries were doing decades before the UK (I have a tiny pension or two floating around somewhere in Australia from my first jobs in the late 90's). Other countries also incentivise those who can afford to take private health insurance to do it.

Kinky Gerbil · May 14, 2024

Thunder Bolt said:
It certainly isn’t common sense which is her portfolio.

I've no idea why they have done it in England.

But the ban was brought in for Scotland due to the public not being allowed to wear any symbol of support for causes.

They wanted it to be the same rule for everyone

beorhthelm · May 14, 2024

MJsGhost said:
The majority of the UK's wealth is held by those over 55, so I assume a decent proportion of that is held by pensioners. It's probable that the vast majority of that wealth is held by the richest 5%, so the actual number of wealthy pensioners could indeed be small and therefore means-testing might not save much anyway...

believe it's over 50% of national wealth tied up in pensions, seperate from property assets. while there are many poor pensioner, there's also a lot of moderate to very well off pensioners too.

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 14, 2024

beorhthelm said:
a lot of leaps being made there. just because a tweet makes a misinterpretation no need to follow them. pensioners, not pensions, being means tested has been talked about for years. example winter fuel payments, it has long been suggested should only go to those that actually need it. people, pensioners, quite often joke about it being the wine fund or christmas bonus.

edit, lol at the context, Braverman wanting to remove the two child benefit cap. they dont do consistent thinking.

State pensions, paid for by a specific tax (NI) and paid out on the basis of what one has paid in is not a benefit.

Winter fuel payments is not an 'example' of a means tested pension. It is a means tested benefit.

State pension is not a benefit.

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 14, 2024

beorhthelm said:
believe it's over 50% of national wealth tied up in pensions, seperate from property assets. while there are many poor pensioner, there's also a lot of moderate to very well off pensioners too.

Private pensioners. There are no people reliant on state pension who are well off.

hans kraay fan club · May 14, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Private pensioners. There are no people reliant on state pension who are well off.

Surely the people who have both a state and a private pension, are still 'state pensioners' - quite possible to be drawing a state pension AND be well off - I hope so, anyway, as that's where I hope to be in 10-12 years' time.

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 14, 2024

Audax said:
Hence why I said any means testing system needs to be very well designed. Things I would *not* be in favour of includes both of those things you mention here. Actively monitoring bank accounts as part of the means testing is a step too far, IMO, especially given the government has already proven it can't be trusted to monitor this sort of stuff properly with the Carer's Allowance overpayments issues.

On your second point - I don't see what that has to do with means testing? Those cut backs were done in the name of "austerity" and urgently needs to be reversed. BUT one way of helping make those facilities affordable for everyone is to means test. Subsidise (on a sliding scale between 100% and 0%) based on means testing.

I would say here, however, that I'm in no way suggesting that building a robust means testing system is easy. It's not. Especially when you get into the realms of protecting inheritances (eg the family home - I'm not advocating that family homes should be sold off because means testing says you have assets that can fund care).

What we do need to be thinking about is how we build an equitable NHS, equitable social care, equitable elderly care systems, etc. The NHS is a beautiful thing. But what I would say is that I'm stunned it's lasted as long as it has when it is based on "free to all at point of access". It's expensive to do, and there is a proportion of society who don't actually need it; some of whom choose not to use it, but not all of them.

In many respects the NHS and National Insurance in the UK has delayed the UK when it comes to helping individuals to prepare for later life / help take the burden off government. For example, mandating employers offer pensions to a minimum level and that individuals must opt out (rather than in) is something that other countries were doing decades before the UK (I have a tiny pension or two floating around somewhere in Australia from my first jobs in the late 90's). Other countries also incentivise those who can afford to take private health insurance to do it.

Good points.

On private pensions, when I started as a lecturer (in fact before that, when I was a post doc) I was automatically signed into USS. I think I was automatically registered with the AUT union too. Around that time the Tories encouraged folk to opt out of workplace pensions and arrange their own. Loads of nurses on a similar scheme to mine did this and lost out badly. And of course the union closed shop process was ended by Thatcher. So people opted out of representation and their workplace pensions. Brilliant plan.

The USS scheme was fabulous till 10 years ago when the final salary calculation was replaced by average salary calculation. This has cost younger colleagues an estimated 40% of the value of their pension. I was OK because I was 55 at the time of the change. I also maxed out my AVCs (the smartest thing I ever did).

Meanwhile we are seeing young lecturers, even senior lecturers leave academia for other work. Unheard of in the past because even though the salary ain't all that great to begin with, academic freedom coupled with a big pension at the end of the rainbow made the job very attractive. Now, starting salary remains low, the pension is degraded, and academic freedom has been replaced by insane amounts of form filling. I have to review all the courses I run shortly, using a proforma that makes me address questions no bugger in their right mind would ever ask, plus submit to appraisal which remains pointless but which now involves pages of form filling. Right in the middle of exam paper marking.

As for teaching and assessment.....we have industrial scale exam cheating this year, with students uploading essays and then accessing them on the exam room computers, and even having people remotely access their exam computers and upload answers. If they delete their browser history quickly enough after the exam they can't be caught. Except when they plagiarize their own previous course work and get caught by Turnitin. As has happened. then it is hours of form filling, a hearing and so on.

And of course we have dumbed down assessments to cater for the massive increase in numbers, with MCQs and SAQs replacing essays for the most part.

We seem to have a knack of destroying all the good things in his country, replacing them with tat, tomfoolery and oodles of bureaucracy. Largely in the name of 'saving money'.

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 14, 2024

hans kraay fan club said:
Surely the people who have both a state and a private pension, are still 'state pensioners' - quite possible to be drawing a state pension AND be well off - I hope so, anyway, as that's where I hope to be in 10-12 years' time.

My point is that matey seemed to be suggesting people can be well of because of state pensions. Alone. That's nonsense. If they have worked long enough to pay off a mortgage, and live simply, like an 80 year old pal of mine, they can be OK. But his house is cold in winter because he can't afford to heat it. And he has two small private pensions as well.

But I'm sure there is a right wing tory who can prove you can live like a king on under £15K PA. No doubt he'll be along in a minute to mansplain

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 14, 2024

hans kraay fan club said:
Surely the people who have both a state and a private pension, are still 'state pensioners' - quite possible to be drawing a state pension AND be well off - I hope so, anyway, as that's where I hope to be in 10-12 years' time.

Edit: see reliant. :thumbsup:

beorhthelm · May 14, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
My point is that matey seemed to be suggesting people can be well of because of state pensions. Alone. That's nonsense.

it would be nonsense, i said nothing like that. i was only agreeing the point about majority of wealth is in the held by those over 55. so maybe it could be appropriate for means testing of benefits currently auto-paid to this group. but not, to be absolutely clear, the state penion. that's something no one is suggesting, other than a few inventing a problem to complain about.

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 14, 2024

beorhthelm said:
it would be nonsense, i said nothing like that. i was only agreeing the point about majority of wealth is in the held by those over 55. so maybe it could be appropriate for means testing of benefits currently auto-paid to this group. but not, to be absolutely clear, the state penion. that's something no one is suggesting, other than a few inventing a problem to complain about.

Your comment was made in the context of means testing state pensions, where you note that there are lots of well off pensioners as well as poor ones, making it perfectly reasonable for one to assume you are in favour of means testing state pensions:

Perhaps if you made a tiny bit more effort to write clearly there would be less scope for misinterpretation?

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