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[Politics] Sunak's benefits shake up



Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,407
Faversham
Cotton Socks said:
I've skipped from page 11 to put in my all round thoughts to here, actually I got a bit further but was a bit shocked by some responses & giving my thoughts individually will take hours but unfortunately it just looks like I've had a go at @Cornwallboy (sorry) because it would take ages to fit everyone after his post in.

Mental health issues are not always seen and quite often it's the people that you think are absolutely fine, are the ones that aren't. I'll find the advert that should've reminded all of us to ask people if they're ok, about the guy who stopped turning up to the matches and his seat neighbour finding out he'd topped himself and post it in a minute.

I'm only speaking for Brighton here, as it appears Worthing is a lot better but there is virtually no mental health services available. Even private practices have waiting lists unless you can afford £100+ an hour. £50 an hour is cheap. After at least 6 months of being on the NHS waiting list in Brighton (that's very generous), you'll be offered a course of 6-12 CBT sessions, that really is a one size fits all programme but is very good. If the 6-12 CBT sessions haven't worked for you, then you're on your own. I really want to go off on a tangent to say why CBT doesn't fit all, but I wont.

There is no medical assessment of mental health apart from tick box questionnaires, unless you actually spend a couple of sessions with a mental health professional. What exactly is the proposal (yes I know it's not going to happen, but I'm angry). There are no mental health practitioners to help the people on the waiting list. Most of those who have stayed on the waiting list aren't f**king around looking to take some time off of work to make themselves feel more s**t. Where are all these 'people' going to come from that are 'qualified' enough to say that someones mental health is 'bad' enough (I hate that term) not to work?

In simple terms there is no one else but someones GP to say that someone has a mental health condition when there is no one else available. People who are in severe MH crisis get turned away from Millview as they've not tried hard enough to kill themselves. As much as I'd like to say that's an exaggeration, it's true & those that have tried hard enough are still kicked out a few hours later.

I'm being led by the thread to assume that the current government are dog whistling to the few supporters they have left, to target people with MH issues as their 'sick note' culture people. I didn't listen to the interview and BBC news has combined it to any one who's claiming disability benefits.
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I admire your restraint. There is a lot to be angry about with respect to this latest 'proposal'. In fact, there is everything to be angry about, right down to the 'this is all kindness and common sense' tone with which Sunk delivered the announcement yesterday.

However, for some, the key issue is that I was rude to a couple of oafs (sorry, fine upstanding old conservatives), yesterday.
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,407
Faversham
Cornwallboy said:
So you've called me an ignorant twat but you haven't called me that??

There you go again, insulting people you don't agree with!! You need some self reflection.
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Deflection, as usual.
 






C

Cornwallboy

Active member
Oct 13, 2022
405
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I admire your restraint. There is a lot to be angry about with respect to this latest 'proposal'. In fact, there is everything to be angry about, right down to the 'this is all kindness and common sense' tone with which Sunk delivered the announcement yesterday.

However, for some, the key issue is that I was rude to a couple of oafs (sorry, fine upstanding old conservatives), yesterday.
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'I was rude to a couple of people I disagreed with yesterday so as per I resorted to personal insults.' One of the 'oafs' said they thought it was a good idea to try and get people who play the benefit system back to work whilst saying they believe help and support should be provided to the genuinely needy.
 




MJsGhost

MJsGhost

Oooh Matron, I'm an
NSC Patron
Jun 26, 2009
4,522
East
Goldstone Guy said:
Here's my opinion for what it's worth:

Most people off work in the long-term (“‘off sick”) are never going to get back to work. How much of the reason is genuine depression, anxiety, back pain etc and how much of it is an attitude/behavioural issue is hard to say, and probably impossible to prove one way or the other in a lot of cases. Once someone reaches their 40s and they haven’t worked for years, it’s too late. Most of them won’t become “economically active”.

The solution to reduce the number people in this situation is to help children gain confidence, self esteem and general life skills so that they develop into adults with a healthy, positive attitude towards life and social interaction with others, and find work to be a positive, fulfilling experience. (Having jobs where you don’t work an extremely pressurised 12-13 hour day non-stop without any breaks might help as well but that’s another story). This requires investment in education and sports, outdoor activities, arts, music etc to help them develop skills and be happy. It also requires investment in children’s mental health services so that if they do have problems (a lot of children and parents are coming forward now believing they may autism or ADHD for example) these can be treated and that person can get close to fulfilling their potential. Instead as a country we do the opposite. Teachers are not valued, schools are swamped with inspections, and children's mental health “services” are pretty much non-existent, so the problem of economically inactive adults will probably get worse in the next 10-15 years in my opinion as these untreated, neglected children reach working age.

So as usual this is problem of the government’s own making and they are making it worse. It is difficult because it requires a long-term vision over 10-20 years which of course is longer than the time-frame which governments work to. I wish someone in politics would come up with decent long-term policies looking way beyond their elected five year term - they’d get my vote if they did.

There’s another group of people who are economically inactive who want to get back to work but can’t work due to a fixable condition (eg hip osteoarthritis) and are waiting for treatment. Once they get treated they’ll be fit to return to work but of course the waiting lists are massive and so they’re off work for months to years waiting. Again a problem which the government have created themselves.
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This.

Pouring money into education and development for kids (all kids) is the only way.

Getting a political party to commit to something which will take so long to come to fruition is always going to be tough.

Tories wouldn't do it as it lessens the baked-in advantage their kids in private schools receive.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,407
Faversham
Cornwallboy said:
'I was rude to a couple of people I disagreed with yesterday so as per I resorted to personal insults.' One of the 'oafs' said they thought it was a good idea to try and get people who play the benefit system back to work whilst saying they believe help and support should be provided to the genuinely needy.
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Give over. I had your previous persona on ignore because of your persistent twisting of facts and narrative to suit your low rent right wing preferences. Classic tactic, address something different from the subject in hand, introduce a trope such as 'playing the benefit system' and pretend that everyone who opposes (in this case) Sunks madcap scheme, is in favour of benefit 'cheats'.

I'll do you a favour and put you on ignore.

There, now, you can bugger off and won't need to think about me ever again.
 


Colonel Mustard

Colonel Mustard

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2023
2,059
Cornwallboy said:
One of the 'oafs' said they thought it was a good idea to try and get people who play the benefit system back to work whilst saying they believe help and support should be provided to the genuinely needy.
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That seems like a reasonable position to me, no? As always, people get very binary about these things. It's clearly true that some cynically take advantage of the system while others are in dire need and deserve support. As with immigration and other issues that polarise people, if we could more easily differentiate between the pisstakers and those in need, we could make a real difference to people's lives. I doubt if there's anyone sane who really thinks we shouldn't assist those who are struggling through no fault of their own.
 






Colonel Mustard

Colonel Mustard

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2023
2,059
Goldstone Guy said:
Here's my opinion for what it's worth:

Most people off work in the long-term (“‘off sick”) are never going to get back to work. How much of the reason is genuine depression, anxiety, back pain etc and how much of it is an attitude/behavioural issue is hard to say, and probably impossible to prove one way or the other in a lot of cases. Once someone reaches their 40s and they haven’t worked for years, it’s too late. Most of them won’t become “economically active”.

The solution to reduce the number people in this situation is to help children gain confidence, self esteem and general life skills so that they develop into adults with a healthy, positive attitude towards life and social interaction with others, and find work to be a positive, fulfilling experience. (Having jobs where you don’t work an extremely pressurised 12-13 hour day non-stop without any breaks might help as well but that’s another story). This requires investment in education and sports, outdoor activities, arts, music etc to help them develop skills and be happy. It also requires investment in children’s mental health services so that if they do have problems (a lot of children and parents are coming forward now believing they may autism or ADHD for example) these can be treated and that person can get close to fulfilling their potential. Instead as a country we do the opposite. Teachers are not valued, schools are swamped with inspections, and children's mental health “services” are pretty much non-existent, so the problem of economically inactive adults will probably get worse in the next 10-15 years in my opinion as these untreated, neglected children reach working age.

So as usual this is problem of the government’s own making and they are making it worse. It is difficult because it requires a long-term vision over 10-20 years which of course is longer than the time-frame which governments work to. I wish someone in politics would come up with decent long-term policies looking way beyond their elected five year term - they’d get my vote if they did.

There’s another group of people who are economically inactive who want to get back to work but can’t work due to a fixable condition (eg hip osteoarthritis) and are waiting for treatment. Once they get treated they’ll be fit to return to work but of course the waiting lists are massive and so they’re off work for months to years waiting. Again a problem which the government have created themselves.
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Good points, well expressed. Pretty much sums up my view too. It's a complex, nuanced issue that needs long term thinking and a long term strategy. Never easy to manage when governments are reluctant to look beyond the time limits of their own administration.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,407
Faversham
MJsGhost said:
This.

Pouring money into education and development for kids (all kids) is the only way.

Getting a political party to commit to something which will take so long to come to fruition is always going to be tough.

Tories wouldn't do it as it lessens the baked-in advantage their kids in private schools receive.
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Good points. I'm not sure even labour are (yet) prepared to focus on long term issues either (and I say that as a member of the sons of toil party).

I was reading another thread earlier today where Trumps fossil fuel policy was discussed (yes, you guessed, he wants America to dig for oil) and it seems clear that the 'I'm all right jack, sod my kids and grandkids' mentality is alive and well.

When it come to voting for the 'right thing' versus 'jam today', the jam today option has a disappointingly large appeal. Certainly the sorts who consider any change in law is fair game when tackling 'benefit cheats' are not going to go anywhere near the notion of pouring money into education. Unfortunately such people have a vote :down:
 




C

Cornwallboy

Active member
Oct 13, 2022
405
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Give over. I had your previous persona on ignore because of your persistent twisting of facts and narrative to suit your low rent right wing preferences. Classic tactic, address something different from the subject in hand, introduce a trope such as 'playing the benefit system' and pretend that everyone who opposes (in this case) Sunks madcap scheme, is in favour of benefit 'cheats'.

I'll do you a favour and put you on ignore.

There, now, you can bugger off and won't need to think about me ever again.
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You love coming on here telling us how you've put 'so and so' on ignore, so many times I've read it. I never put people on ignore as I enjoy reading alternative opinions to mine (some brilliant posts on this thread that have certainly made me 'think again' with regards to my opinion) and I enjoy engaging in debate as well without resorting to personal insults.
 




chip

chip

Active member
Jul 7, 2003
955
Glorious Goodwood
Zeberdi said:
With PIP people still get seen by a healthcare professional if they have a face to face and have application assessed by healthcare provisionals anyway if over the phone - but yet, the process of assessment is contracted out to the private sector- however anyone suggesting millions of people are claiming PIP ’falsely’ have clearly never been through a PIP application and assessment - the whole process is horrendous and the hoops to go through are excessively demanding, especially if you are unwell.
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I've accompanied several people to PIP and ESA assessments. They have never been on time. Many people in the waiting areas have chronic conditions which will only get worse with time and will have been receiving care for years for their conditions. The only time PIP was awarded after the assessment was when the assessor convinced herself I was the applicants GP. For three others, few points were given and the applications rejected, mandatory reconsiderations also. All won their PIP appeals and all at least 18 months after the first assessment. It is a hugely inefficient, unfair and degrading process that dimishes our humanity.

My partner works for a mental health charity. She routinely supports people through PIP applications, time that would be better spent supporting these people with their MH. Of course, none of this helps people's MH and most have comorbidities. The whole process is f*cked and makes me very angry. I'm sure that it contributes to A&E and police workloads.

As I approach retirement I am considering becoming a disability tribunal panel member. It should be easy as so few get rejected.
 




S

Si Gull

Way Down South
Mar 18, 2008
4,402
On top of the world
stewart12 said:
depends how you define "legitimate"

every applicant for PIP goes through a length application process. Their application needs to be supported by medical evidence from a health professional (consultant, GP, support worker etc). They then are heavily scrutinised in an independent assessment from someone who is, apparently, medically trained. Loads are turned down at this point with the option of appeal and later and independent tribunal- which finds in favour of the applicant in most cases.

For what was ESA, which has now been (mostly) incorporated into Universal Credit, applicants are again required to submit medical evidence, in this case a signed note from their GP. They are also separately required to attend an assessment with a DWP appointed "health professional" who assesses their claim and their ability to work.

In both cases their claim is ultimately scrutinised by several qualified health professionals. How legitimate does a claim need to be exactly?
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I have a close relative with an acquired brain injury. In their own words, they 'look normal' but the reality is very different. Among other issues, they have significant cognitive difficulties with numbers, dates, times, and cannot multitask at all (including being unable to do anything whilst talking to someone else). They were rejected for PIP following a joke of an assessment. We had to appeal as the 'medically trained' assessor had no experience of the condition or the symptoms related to it, and was basically clueless. It was incredibly stressful, and humiliating, for my relative who felt they were being treated as a criminal, despite comprehensive supporting evidence from a neurology consultant, occupational therapist, physiotherapist, and GP. After two years the process was repeated, despite medical evidence stating that the condition is permanent, with no possibility of recovery.

Even now, five years later, my relative is worried every time a letter arrives from DWP, in case they are going to be put through the whole humiliating process again. Their worrues are not helped by the sort of shit written about 'benefit culture' in certain media outlets and promoted by the government; they have no idea.
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,407
Faversham
The Clamp said:
They’ve had 14 years to sort this out. Why this year is it all of a sudden so urgent, I wonder?

Unless of course this wasn’t a problem 14 years ago. Hmmmm.
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The trope is that 'benefit culture' has 'got worse'
The problem (not stated but implied) is that GPs hand out sick notes inappropriately
So Sunak has come up with a 'quite reasonable' plan to deal with benefit fraud.

And lots of people, including some ordinarily sensible people who post on NSC have bought the trope, even getting patronizing or even pissy when they think that I and others are against tackling benefit fraud.

This is nothing to do with benefit fraud, old fruits. It's weaponizing the concept of benefit fraud. The new 'illegal immigration'.

Now, even if this 'plan' is not enacted, it has reminded us all of the problem (as stated above) and seeded the idea that benefit fraud is rife
Whether the Tories get in again or not* they are seeding the benefit fraud concept to weaponize, going forward.
And you cannot argue with the 'plan' or you will be in favour of benefit fraud

"Labour wasting taxpayers money subsidize benefit cheats. Stealing money from hard-working men and women"

Along with 'illegal immigration' (which Labour actively encourages, obviously) there we have our political narrative for the next five years. Or ten.

*It's not. Pray to your chosen deity that it's not.
 






Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,588
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
This thread on X shows the DWP already demonise sick people without any 'new' legislation. It is from July 2023. It is sickening reading of 13 examples of people passed fit for work who were dying. Yes, dying!

 


B

Berty23

Well-known member
Jun 26, 2012
3,210
I am pretty sure 30 years ago my generation were called works shy and lazy - I am mid 40s. I would bet money the generation before were called the same. It is what people do to younger people.

Re things getting worse - at some point people will wonder whether there is a link between the massive decline in mental health services, increasing people struggling with cost of living, support in schools, plus of course record nhs waiting lists and people dropping out of work due to health issues.
 


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