[Politics] Donald Trump 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:

You aren't suggesting....that he'll say anything to anyone . . . . to maximise leverage and traction . . . regardless of the content or how it was all different when addressed another lot of people earlier? And so on? Shirley Knott?

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I wasn’t suggesting anything other than literally what I posted - a link to the BBC story posted this morning that Trump says the Arizona ban ‘goes too far’. He’s still a fcukwit with no conviction politics or ideology other than the pursuit of power for power’s sake, of course he’ll say whatever suits him at the time and tailor it to his audiences as he did in 1999 - I think I’ve made it pretty clear on this thread how I feel about the man.


He’s not going to come out and support a total ban on abortion and hand the Election over to the Democrats.

Edit - the ironic tone of my post probably should have dispelled any impression I thought Trump not supporting the Arizona ban was anything to applaud him for.

Zeberdi said:

I wasn’t suggesting anything other than literally what I posted - a link to the BBC story posted this morning that Trump says the Arizona ban ‘goes too far’. He’s still a fcukwit with no conviction politics or ideology other than the pursuit of power for power’s sake, of course he’ll say whatever suits him at the time and tailor it to his audiences as he did in 1999 - I think I’ve made it pretty clear on this thread how I feel about the man.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/10/us/politics/trump-arizona-abortion.html?unlocked_article_code=1.jk0.cqPc.ClxgslMYPvdX&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&ugrp=u

He’s not going to come out and support a total ban on abortion and hand the Election over to the Democrats.

Edit - the ironic tone of my post probably should have dispelled any impression I thought Trump not supporting the Arizona ban was anything to applaud him for.

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When I said 'you're not suggesting', it wasn't an actual question. It was a comedic rhetorical way of touching base with the well-recognised concept that Trump will say anything to curry support and change what he says to suit his audience (in a 'lest we not forget' sort of way). I was inviting neither a 5 minute argument nor the full half hour

Harry Wilson's tackle said:

When I said 'you're not suggesting', it wasn't an actual question. It was a comedic rhetorical way of touching base with the well-recognised concept that Trump will say anything to curry support and change what he says to suit his audience (in a 'lest we not forget' sort of way). I was inviting neither a 5 minute argument nor the full half hour

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Then you again you missed the tone of my post - I wasn’t trying to start ahalf hour argument just clarifying what I meant agreeing with you Try not to talk in riddles

Zeberdi said:

Then you again you missed the tone of my post - I wasn’t trying to start ahalf hour argument just clarifying what I meant agreeing with you Try not to talk in riddles

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It's as if two ******** people are trying to have a conversation, while competing to prove who agrees with the other the most vehemently

Trump goes to a fortune teller and asks what he’ll be doing in a year.

The teller says, “I see you riding down Pennsylvania Avenue in a fancy limousine.

People on both sides of the road are yelling and cheering and celebrating.”

Trump says, “Am I smiling”?

The teller answers, “I don’t know, the casket is closed.

Triggaaar said:

No, last time Russia weren't at war with Ukraine. If he withdraws support for Ukraine that will be a massive issue.

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Yes they were. They invaded in 2014.

Kuipers Supporters Club said:

Yes they were. They invaded in 2014.

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Crimea was annexed in 2014, but there wasn't a full war. Russia didn't invade the rest of Ukraine, and Ukraine's survival wasn't dependent on support from the West. Trump being useless didn't impact Ukraine in the way that it would now.

Triggaaar said:

Crimea was annexed in 2014, but there wasn't a full war. Russia didn't invade the rest of Ukraine, and Ukraine's survival wasn't dependent on support from the West. Trump being useless didn't impact Ukraine in the way that it would now.

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Trump sold Ukraine down the fcuking river when he supported Putin’s invasion of Crimea and later blackmailed Ukraine with arms sells in exchange for dirt on the Bidens. That’s not a small thing he did there.

It was Trump that effectively green lighted Putins invasion and annexation of Crimea in the first place - he wished Putin luck with the rest of Ukraine - Trump is already doing damage to Ukraine now by having his supporters in the House of Reps not agreeing to a funding package unless it’s linked to immigration reforms - that’s stalled it for weeks..

Trump also threatened to pull out of NATO which delighted Putin.

I’m not sure he could have had much more of an impact on Ukraine if he tried tbh. Yes, it’s likely support for Ukraine will dry up completely under a Trump presidency but after 3 years of a stalemate war that is a possibility anyway. America is not the Ally Ukraine needs - Ukraine’s hope lies with France and Germany, UK and the Eastern European countries on the NATO border who would be directly threatened by Russian tanks lined up on their borders.

I don’t think the American people have Ukraine very high on their agendas right now. They have far more pressing concerns - like the threat to American democracy and civil disorder another Trump Presidency would bring.

Zeberdi said:

Trump sold Ukraine down the fcuking river when he supported Putin’s invasion of Crimea and later blackmailed Ukraine with arms sells in exchange for dirt on the Bidens.

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Trump wasn't president when Putin invaded Crimea.

Zeberdi said:

It was Trump that effectively green lighted Putins invasion and annexation of Crimea in the first place - he wished Putin luck with the rest of Ukraine - Trump is already doing damage to Ukraine now by having his supporters in the House of Reps not agreeing to a funding package unless it’s linked to immigration reforms - that’s stalled it for weeks..

Trump also threatened to pull out of NATO which delighted Putin.

I’m not sure he could have had much more of an impact on Ukraine if he tried tbh. Yes, it’s likely support for Ukraine will dry up completely under a Trump presidency but after 3 years of a stalemate war that is a possibility anyway. America is not the Ally Ukraine needs - Ukraine’s hope lies with France and Germany, UK and the Eastern European countries on the NATO border who would be directly threatened by Russian tanks lined up on their borders.

I don’t think the American people have Ukraine very high on their agendas right now. They have far more pressing concerns - like the threat to American democracy and civil disorder another Trump Presidency would bring.

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So you don't think it'll make much difference to Ukraine whether or not Trump wins the election? Ok. I think it will.

There’s plenty to actually blame Trump for without blaming an invasion two years before he was even president on him, and I’m hardly minded to defend Trump on anything

A1X said:

There’s plenty to actually blame Trump for without blaming an invasion two years before he was even president on him, and I’m hardly minded to defend Trump on anything

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True…He also wasn’t president when they invaded in 2022. Still his fault though, obviously…

Triggaaar said:

Trump wasn't president when Putin invaded Crimea.

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I didn’t actually say he was but if my post gave that impression, it was due to over-editing on my part. In more detail; Trump has always supported Putin even before he was President and was aligned with Putin on Ukraine long before he became President too - as was his 2016 campaign manager Paul Manafort and his Lawyer, Rudi Giuliani so my point stands:

After years of being cultivated by Russia, Trump subsequently sent signals to Putin that if Trump were elected, Putin would have an ally in the White House on Ukraine - Russia’s interference in Trump’s efforts to get to power in 2016 became a subject for investigation in the Meuller inquiry.

Background : Twenty years ago, there was no significant reservoir of opposition to Ukrainian independence and democracy. The burgeoning alliance between Russian nationalists and America Firsters was set in motion when Paul Manafort went to work for the pro-Russian Party of Regions in Ukraine in 2004. Manifort, once one of the most powerful Republican lobbyists in Washington, had begun a globetrotting career selling his services to dictators. His Ukrainian client, Viktor Yanukovych and the Party of Regions, was Putin’s main organ for maintaining control of his neighboring country. When Putin ginned up demonstrations in eastern Ukraine as a pretext to hive off chunks of land in 2014, Trump said, “So smart, when you see the riots in a country because they’re hurting the Russians, Okay, we’ll go and take it over… You have to give him a lot of credit.” After winning the nomination, Trump promised to consider recognising Putin’s land seizure because “the people of Crimea, from what I’ve heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were.”

• Trump later brought in Manafort to run his 2016 election campaign - in that same campaign, echoing Russian propaganda, he smeared Ukraine by falsely suggesting that Kyiv rather than Moscow had interfered in the 2016 US presidential election by hacking the Democrat emails .

• As President - He delayed military aid to Zelenskyy in an attempt to get dirt on the Bidens - which became an article for his first impeachment in 2019
• Out of Office, Trump called Russia’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine, ‘savvy’, ‘genius’ and ‘wonderful’
• Trump said he took the Russian president at his word at a summit in Helsinki in 2018 and dismissed U.S. intelligence agencies' conclusions that Russia had interfered in the 2016 election.

The point isTrump has not needed to be President to damage Ukraine and send green lights to Putin about Crimea or his Ukraine invasion - in fact he has done as much damage to Ukraine when he has not been president as when he was - by his historic relations with Russia, his cosying up to Putin, and by his supporters now blocking funding because Trump wants his immigration reforms to go through.

Triggaaar said:

So you don't think it'll make much difference to Ukraine whether or not Trump wins the election? Ok. I think it will.

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As I said in my earlier post, and have said all through this thread a Trump presidency would be disastrous for Ukraine. You are making assumptions about my POVs and gas lighting my post, clearly unaware of my previous contributions on this thread - I think most regular readers of the thread will how I feel about the possibility of Trump being reelected, including the impact it will have on Ukraine

As I have repeatedly said: Funding for Ukraine would likely dry up and Zelenskyy would no doubt be put under pressure by a Trump administration to concede part of Ukraine (Crimea at least ) to Putin.

A1X said:

There’s plenty to actually blame Trump for without blaming an invasion two years before he was even president on him, and I’m hardly minded to defend Trump on anything

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I refer you to the first sentence of my reply - FYI, I have already blamed Trump for an enormous amount on this thread. Pages of blame - So don’t need to be told that thanks . .

However, Trump’s influence on American politics in relation to Russia and Ukraine go back to long before he was President and before Putin actually invaded Ukraine in 2022 - that was the point I meant to elucidate but got lost in my attempts to edit my earlier response into a shorter post - so now everyone has got the long version which most people won’t now bother to read anyway .

If you think Trump had no connection to Putin/Russia/Ukraine before he became President and is completely un-blameworthy in giving Putin the impression Trump would support his annexation of Crimea (and any subsequent invasion of Ukraine) you may find the Guardian article below is a really good read. it will probably astonish you just how much the 2016 Presidential candidate was already entangled up to his neck in Russian politics through Manafort, Rudi Guliani and his business dealings which go back to the 80s, including evidence of the Trump Organisation being alleged to have money laundering operations with Russian oligarchs through the Deutsche Bank.

It is hardly surprising Putin wanted Trump not Clinton to win the White House and interfered in the 2016 Presidential Election to that end…It also suggests to me that Putin miscalculated and thought Trump would win in 2020 too but by that time plans to invade Ukraine were well under way: “Russian President Vladimir Putin authorized "influence operations aimed at denigrating President Biden's candidacy and the Democratic Party, supporting Trump, undermining public confidence in the electoral process and exacerbating socio-political divisions in the U.S," says the report by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.”

By that time, Trump lost the 2020 election, Putin’s Ukraine invasion had already been years in the planning and throughout the Trump Presidency, he was given the time he needed to develop his invasion plans.

This is a long read but highlights that Russia had been cultivating Trump for years before he was elected and continued to influence American elections to get him into the White House



TDLR?

Was Trump President when Putin invaded Ukraine? - No. However, Trump can certainly be blamed for giving Putin the impression America would be soft on Crimea, that Trump had both Rudi Guliani and Paul Manafort as close cohorts, both with shady and insurrectionist involvement in Ukraine prior to Trump’s Presidency. Trump can certainly be blamed for giving Putin the impression that he would have an ally on Ukraine in the White House if Trump won the 2016 Election and the 2020 Election -( Russian interference in both these elections is evidenced by subsequent inquiries) - Trump can also be blamed for his role on the current influences in the Republican Party that is now blocking aid to Ukraine in Congress.






.

Zeberdi said:

I didn’t actually say he was but if my post gave that impression, it was due to over-editing on my part. In more detail; Trump has always supported Putin even before he was President and was aligned with Putin on Ukraine long before he became President too

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I know you didn't. But you were joining a conversation I was having where I said what Trump could for Putin (if elected) was a worry, Exilegul said it was a worry last time (he was president) but not much happened, and I pointed out that last time Russia weren't at war with Ukraine (ie, Trump's actions/inactions as president while the war is on is a much bigger deal than his inactions before).

I'd actually imagine you'd agree with my point that Trump becoming president while there's a war between Russia and Ukraine is worrying, but somehow you seem to be arguing against me

Triggaaar said:

Crimea was annexed in 2014, but there wasn't a full war. Russia didn't invade the rest of Ukraine, and Ukraine's survival wasn't dependent on support from the West. Trump being useless didn't impact Ukraine in the way that it would now.

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This is absolute nonsense, Crimea was 100% part of Ukraine before 2014.

You can’t blame Trump for Russia invading Ukraine in 2014.

Zeberdi said:

I didn’t actually say he was but if my post gave that impression, it was due to over-editing on my part. In more detail; Trump has always supported Putin even before he was President and was aligned with Putin on Ukraine long before he became President too - as was his 2016 campaign manager Paul Manafort and his Lawyer, Rudi Giuliani so my point stands:

After years of being cultivated by Russia, Trump subsequently sent signals to Putin that if Trump were elected, Putin would have an ally in the White House on Ukraine - Russia’s interference in Trump’s efforts to get to power in 2016 became a subject for investigation in the Meuller inquiry.

Background : Twenty years ago, there was no significant reservoir of opposition to Ukrainian independence and democracy. The burgeoning alliance between Russian nationalists and America Firsters was set in motion when Paul Manafort went to work for the pro-Russian Party of Regions in Ukraine in 2004. Manifort, once one of the most powerful Republican lobbyists in Washington, had begun a globetrotting career selling his services to dictators. His Ukrainian client, Viktor Yanukovych and the Party of Regions, was Putin’s main organ for maintaining control of his neighboring country. When Putin ginned up demonstrations in eastern Ukraine as a pretext to hive off chunks of land in 2014, Trump said, “So smart, when you see the riots in a country because they’re hurting the Russians, Okay, we’ll go and take it over… You have to give him a lot of credit.” After winning the nomination, Trump promised to consider recognising Putin’s land seizure because “the people of Crimea, from what I’ve heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were.”

• Trump later brought in Manafort to run his 2016 election campaign - in that same campaign, echoing Russian propaganda, he smeared Ukraine by falsely suggesting that Kyiv rather than Moscow had interfered in the 2016 US presidential election by hacking the Democrat emails .

How Trump and Putin Have Been Allies Against Ukraine

In addition to sharing Putin’s loathing of Ukraine, Trump has long supported delegitimizing the now besieged country.

nymag.com

• As President - He delayed military aid to Zelenskyy in an attempt to get dirt on the Bidens - which became an article for his first impeachment in 2019
• Out of Office, Trump called Russia’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine, ‘savvy’, ‘genius’ and ‘wonderful’
• Trump said he took the Russian president at his word at a summit in Helsinki in 2018 and dismissed U.S. intelligence agencies' conclusions that Russia had interfered in the 2016 election.

The point isTrump has not needed to be President to damage Ukraine and send green lights to Putin about Crimea or his Ukraine invasion - in fact he has done as much damage to Ukraine when he has not been president as when he was - by his historic relations with Russia, his cosying up to Putin, and by his supporters now blocking funding because Trump wants his immigration reforms to go through.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/06/politics/trump-putin-ukraine/index.html

Trump Says He Would Consider Recognizing Crimea As Part Of Russia

The Republican candidate for U.S. president, Donald Trump, has said that, if elected, he would consider recognizing Russia’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula.

www.rferl.org

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/23/trump-putin-ukraine-invasion-00010923

As I said in my earlier post, and have said all through this thread a Trump presidency would be disastrous for Ukraine. You are making assumptions about my POVs and gas lighting my post, clearly unaware of my previous contributions on this thread - I think most regular readers of the thread will how I feel about the possibility of Trump being reelected, including the impact it will have on Ukraine

As I have repeatedly said: Funding for Ukraine would likely dry up and Zelenskyy would no doubt be put under pressure by a Trump administration to concede part of Ukraine (Crimea at least ) to Putin.



I refer you to the first sentence of my reply - FYI, I have already blamed Trump for an enormous amount on this thread. Pages of blame - So don’t need to be told that thanks . .

However, Trump’s influence on American politics in relation to Russia and Ukraine go back to long before he was President and before Putin actually invaded Ukraine in 2022 - that was the point I meant to elucidate but got lost in my attempts to edit my earlier response into a shorter post - so now everyone has got the long version which most people won’t now bother to read anyway .

If you think Trump had no connection to Putin/Russia/Ukraine before he became President and is completely un-blameworthy in giving Putin the impression Trump would support his annexation of Crimea (and any subsequent invasion of Ukraine) you may find the Guardian article below is a really good read. it will probably astonish you just how much the 2016 Presidential candidate was already entangled up to his neck in Russian politics through Manafort, Rudi Guliani and his business dealings which go back to the 80s, including evidence of the Trump Organisation being alleged to have money laundering operations with Russian oligarchs through the Deutsche Bank.

It is hardly surprising Putin wanted Trump not Clinton to win the White House and interfered in the 2016 Presidential Election to that end…It also suggests to me that Putin miscalculated and thought Trump would win in 2020 too but by that time plans to invade Ukraine were well under way: “Russian President Vladimir Putin authorized "influence operations aimed at denigrating President Biden's candidacy and the Democratic Party, supporting Trump, undermining public confidence in the electoral process and exacerbating socio-political divisions in the U.S," says the report by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.”

By that time, Trump lost the 2020 election, Putin’s Ukraine invasion had already been years in the planning and throughout the Trump Presidency, he was given the time he needed to develop his invasion plans.

This is a long read but highlights that Russia had been cultivating Trump for years before he was elected and continued to influence American elections to get him into the White House

How Trump walked into Putin’s web

The long read: The inside story of how a former British spy was hired to investigate Russia’s influence on Trump – and uncovered explosive evidence that Moscow had been cultivating Trump for years

www.theguardian.com

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/16/977958302/intelligence-report-russia-tried-to-help-trump-in-2020-election

TDLR?

Was Trump President when Putin invaded Ukraine? - No. However, Trump can certainly be blamed for giving Putin the impression America would be soft on Crimea, that Trump had both Rudi Guliani and Paul Manafort as close cohorts, both with shady and insurrectionist involvement in Ukraine prior to Trump’s Presidency. Trump can certainly be blamed for giving Putin the impression that he would have an ally on Ukraine in the White House if Trump won the 2016 Election and the 2020 Election -( Russian interference in both these elections is evidenced by subsequent inquiries) - Trump can also be blamed for his role on the current influences in the Republican Party that is now blocking aid to Ukraine in Congress.






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You have a lot of knowledge and contribute a lot on here but I wonder if you might ease down a bit on justifying every word you say with long counter arguments. I wonder if it's really needed tbf, maybe just let some things pass?

Kuipers Supporters Club said:

This is absolute nonsense, Crimea was 100% part of Ukraine before 2014.

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Eh? Who said it wasn't?

Kuipers Supporters Club said:

You can’t blame Trump for Russia invading Ukraine in 2014.

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I didn't. What are you talking about?

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what we think. All we can do is hope (that Trump is successfully prosecuted and barred from running, or that he is not elected, and that the Democrats regain control of enough of US government to hold sway . . . . .and even then will arming Ukraine actually help anything?). Hope springs eternal. Even hopeless has 'hope' in it.

Triggaaar said:

Eh? Who said it wasn't?


I didn't. What are you talking about?

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Zeberdi.